1 00:00:19,900 --> 00:00:18,250 talk about reclaiming this history about 2 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:19,910 our space program and about Mars in 3 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:22,730 particular sure so you're completely 4 00:00:28,300 --> 00:00:25,490 right Alex but in the early 20th century 5 00:00:31,660 --> 00:00:28,310 it was sort of self-evident that what we 6 00:00:33,310 --> 00:00:31,670 assumed that when we eventually got to 7 00:00:35,229 --> 00:00:33,320 Mars or when we built a telescope that 8 00:00:37,210 --> 00:00:35,239 was powerful enough to see things that 9 00:00:38,710 --> 00:00:37,220 we would see ruins and the remains of a 10 00:00:45,790 --> 00:00:38,720 civilization or even one that still 11 00:00:48,549 --> 00:00:45,800 existed the data here folks is pretty 12 00:00:52,030 --> 00:00:48,559 easy to put your hands on and pretty 13 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:52,040 easy to verify some of the extraordinary 14 00:00:58,060 --> 00:00:55,010 things that Brandenburg is saying in 15 00:01:00,189 --> 00:00:58,070 this interview and the truth is you 16 00:01:01,689 --> 00:01:00,199 don't go there because you really can't 17 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:01,699 handle the truth that's the only thing 18 00:01:06,340 --> 00:01:04,010 that's keeping people back yeah I 19 00:01:08,770 --> 00:01:06,350 couldn't agree more I am told a story on 20 00:01:11,320 --> 00:01:08,780 a podcast that I was on over the weekend 21 00:01:12,969 --> 00:01:11,330 I have a friend of mine very dear friend 22 00:01:14,530 --> 00:01:12,979 she's extremely intelligent she used to 23 00:01:18,490 --> 00:01:14,540 work for the Financial Times and so on 24 00:01:19,810 --> 00:01:18,500 and speaking of Verner von Braun I just 25 00:01:20,530 --> 00:01:19,820 happened to mention that the guy who ran 26 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:20,540 the Apollo program 27 00:01:23,470 --> 00:01:22,010 now this isn't forbidden history in any 28 00:01:26,020 --> 00:01:23,480 way this is just in the books you'll 29 00:01:27,970 --> 00:01:26,030 find it in Wikipedia was an SS major for 30 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:27,980 the Nazis and she just couldn't 31 00:01:32,230 --> 00:01:29,570 literally could not handle the truth 32 00:01:34,690 --> 00:01:32,240 like her mess yes right ss I mean this 33 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:34,700 earth doesn't even count SS when all 34 00:01:38,710 --> 00:01:37,130 that means I mean you know and he joined 35 00:01:40,510 --> 00:01:38,720 this idea that he was a good Nazi is 36 00:01:42,130 --> 00:01:40,520 probably not correct because he was a 37 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:42,140 believer he joined two years before the 38 00:01:46,810 --> 00:01:45,410 war so he he he left it he wasn't 39 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:46,820 defending his country he's like no no no 40 00:01:56,750 --> 00:01:54,260 it's clear when we when the dust settles 41 00:01:58,430 --> 00:01:56,760 that whatever you think about that the 42 00:02:00,140 --> 00:01:58,440 government sure took it very seriously 43 00:02:01,910 --> 00:02:00,150 the spaceburn certainly took it very 44 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:01,920 very seriously that's almost more 45 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:05,250 important what it is is the sleuthing 46 00:02:10,790 --> 00:02:07,770 around in this spooks and all that stuff 47 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:10,800 that go on around someone who does this 48 00:02:14,300 --> 00:02:12,570 research that's more important the 49 00:02:16,850 --> 00:02:14,310 outsourcing of the research that's 50 00:02:18,890 --> 00:02:16,860 what's really more important that's 51 00:02:21,590 --> 00:02:18,900 absolutely the skeptical angle because 52 00:02:23,860 --> 00:02:21,600 those are our data the interpretations 53 00:02:26,090 --> 00:02:23,870 of the data are that there are vanished 54 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:26,100 presumably vanished cultures on other 55 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:27,690 planets in the solar system I think 56 00:02:30,920 --> 00:02:29,010 that's a very good interpretation I go 57 00:02:33,350 --> 00:02:30,930 about halfway there but the actual data 58 00:02:36,979 --> 00:02:33,360 we are working with here is that we have 59 00:02:40,310 --> 00:02:36,989 an extremely dissociative space research 60 00:02:42,130 --> 00:02:40,320 policy in the West where we're 61 00:02:44,930 --> 00:02:42,140 pretending it's one thing and actively 62 00:02:47,690 --> 00:02:44,940 actively believing and spending untold 63 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:47,700 you know billions pursuing this idea 64 00:02:52,100 --> 00:02:50,250 that at least at some stage in the 65 00:02:53,540 --> 00:02:52,110 universe in the solar system's recent 66 00:02:57,150 --> 00:02:53,550 history it was a lot more interesting 67 00:03:01,740 --> 00:03:00,090 on this episode of skeptic oh it is 68 00:03:04,500 --> 00:03:01,750 self-evident in the policy over the last 69 00:03:06,140 --> 00:03:04,510 70 years that an element of particularly 70 00:03:08,490 --> 00:03:06,150 the American military-industrial 71 00:03:11,010 --> 00:03:08,500 establishment up and down believes there 72 00:03:13,140 --> 00:03:11,020 are artificial remains around the solar 73 00:03:14,610 --> 00:03:13,150 system and it is affecting policy it's 74 00:03:17,250 --> 00:03:14,620 affecting internal policy and it's 75 00:03:20,310 --> 00:03:17,260 affecting off-planet policy best 76 00:03:24,630 --> 00:03:20,320 interpretive model for the atmospheric 77 00:03:26,610 --> 00:03:24,640 and sort of soil data is that this is 78 00:03:30,420 --> 00:03:26,620 the result of an ancient nuclear 79 00:03:31,830 --> 00:03:30,430 explosion you're perfectly okay with you 80 00:03:33,090 --> 00:03:31,840 know twenty years down the track it 81 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:33,100 turns out that there's some kind of 82 00:03:37,410 --> 00:03:36,010 crazy bearing in mind you're a plasma 83 00:03:39,990 --> 00:03:37,420 physicists always about to say some kind 84 00:03:42,380 --> 00:03:40,000 of crazy weird plasma event in space 85 00:03:44,970 --> 00:03:42,390 that could cause it there's probably a 86 00:03:48,540 --> 00:03:44,980 possibility of some unknown natural 87 00:03:51,780 --> 00:03:48,550 phenomenon but the only known phenomenon 88 00:03:52,850 --> 00:03:51,790 is the explosion of a very large nuclear 89 00:04:05,150 --> 00:03:52,860 device 90 00:04:09,390 --> 00:04:07,620 welcome to skeptic Oh where we explore 91 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:09,400 controversial science with leading 92 00:04:15,090 --> 00:04:12,010 researchers thinkers and their critics 93 00:04:17,420 --> 00:04:15,100 I'm your host Alex Karras and have you 94 00:04:20,039 --> 00:04:17,430 ever seen the show ancient aliens 95 00:04:21,870 --> 00:04:20,049 nuclear annihilation this would have 96 00:04:24,690 --> 00:04:21,880 been an absolutely devastating event 97 00:04:26,130 --> 00:04:24,700 that you have mysterious well on today's 98 00:04:28,740 --> 00:04:26,140 episode we have quite a treat because 99 00:04:31,140 --> 00:04:28,750 one of the scientists that has been 100 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:31,150 featured on that show several times dr. 101 00:04:36,650 --> 00:04:33,370 John Brandenburg who is a plasma 102 00:04:39,150 --> 00:04:36,660 physicist legit guy who has some very 103 00:04:42,090 --> 00:04:39,160 controversial out there kind of theories 104 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:42,100 about Mars joined my friend and author 105 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:45,490 and podcaster Gordon white for an 106 00:04:54,090 --> 00:04:49,810 interview on not only his theories on 107 00:04:57,420 --> 00:04:54,100 Mars but on a whole host of related 108 00:04:58,620 --> 00:04:57,430 topics that have to do with well just a 109 00:05:01,140 --> 00:04:58,630 lot of the things that we talk about 110 00:05:03,090 --> 00:05:01,150 here on skeptic oh this has been an 111 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:03,100 interesting interview to put together 112 00:05:06,750 --> 00:05:04,210 because there's kind of a lot of 113 00:05:08,969 --> 00:05:06,760 different pieces we have the interview 114 00:05:10,710 --> 00:05:08,979 with Brandenburg that was done by Gordon 115 00:05:12,170 --> 00:05:10,720 and then I really want to do an 116 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:12,180 interview with Gordon because I think 117 00:05:19,260 --> 00:05:15,610 his interview with John Brandenburg left 118 00:05:22,409 --> 00:05:19,270 a lot of issues that I'm most interested 119 00:05:24,659 --> 00:05:22,419 in kind of uncovered so I went ahead and 120 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:24,669 talked to Gordon for quite some time and 121 00:05:30,659 --> 00:05:27,250 now I'm going to try and interleave 122 00:05:33,300 --> 00:05:30,669 those pieces in together for you in a 123 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:33,310 way that I hope makes sense it's a long 124 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:35,650 interview or a long show and I think it 125 00:05:39,930 --> 00:05:37,450 assumes that you're into this stuff at a 126 00:05:42,750 --> 00:05:39,940 certain level but really there's no way 127 00:05:45,630 --> 00:05:42,760 to talk about this without making those 128 00:05:48,590 --> 00:05:45,640 kind of assumptions so it is long so let 129 00:05:51,750 --> 00:05:48,600 me cut to it and get to first my 130 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:51,760 introduction with Gordon white author of 131 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:54,970 starships and Pieces of Eight a new book 132 00:05:59,340 --> 00:05:57,010 that he has it's absolutely fantastic as 133 00:06:03,090 --> 00:05:59,350 a compilation of a lot of essays he's 134 00:06:05,850 --> 00:06:03,100 done on his blog room soup and let's get 135 00:06:08,670 --> 00:06:05,860 to my interview with Gordon and then 136 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:08,680 that will lead into the interview with 137 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:12,570 Gordon did with dr. John Brandenburg 138 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:15,130 today I'm joined by Gordon white the 139 00:06:18,790 --> 00:06:16,490 creator of the 140 00:06:21,159 --> 00:06:18,800 soup blog and podcast and the author of 141 00:06:24,100 --> 00:06:21,169 several books including starships which 142 00:06:26,129 --> 00:06:24,110 you may recall we talked about here on 143 00:06:28,749 --> 00:06:26,139 skeptic oh just a few months ago and 144 00:06:31,029 --> 00:06:28,759 ever since that show and ever since 145 00:06:34,210 --> 00:06:31,039 meeting Gordon I've stayed in touch 146 00:06:35,469 --> 00:06:34,220 because I've really really loved some of 147 00:06:38,110 --> 00:06:35,479 the things that he's bringing forward 148 00:06:39,879 --> 00:06:38,120 and a lot of his ideas so I've pestered 149 00:06:42,930 --> 00:06:39,889 him since then that we ought to do 150 00:06:46,270 --> 00:06:42,940 something together and I eventually 151 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:46,280 wrangled him into doing an interview and 152 00:06:51,189 --> 00:06:47,810 he has a great one he's bringing to us 153 00:06:53,469 --> 00:06:51,199 today with dr. John Brandenburg and what 154 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:53,479 I really want to do today was not only 155 00:06:57,879 --> 00:06:55,970 bring you that interview but talk with 156 00:06:59,020 --> 00:06:57,889 Gordon because there's so many things 157 00:07:02,230 --> 00:06:59,030 about that interview I thought were 158 00:07:05,620 --> 00:07:02,240 fantastic that might slip past you if 159 00:07:08,110 --> 00:07:05,630 you're not into this topic so I'm super 160 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:08,120 excited to have Gordon on Gordon welcome 161 00:07:11,649 --> 00:07:10,130 to skeptic oh and thanks for joining us 162 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:11,659 and thanks for bringing us this great 163 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:14,090 interview with John Brandenburg well it 164 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:15,650 was an absolute pleasure pretending to 165 00:07:19,809 --> 00:07:17,330 be you for about 90 minutes Alex it was 166 00:07:21,850 --> 00:07:19,819 really fun thank you again no I think 167 00:07:24,430 --> 00:07:21,860 you can't you can't play it off like 168 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:24,440 that man it's all you good you're gonna 169 00:07:30,430 --> 00:07:26,690 have a googol bad all right I'll take 170 00:07:33,430 --> 00:07:30,440 that so let's set this up a little bit 171 00:07:36,189 --> 00:07:33,440 you know Gordon if folks don't remember 172 00:07:38,950 --> 00:07:36,199 our interview and aren't familiar with 173 00:07:42,070 --> 00:07:38,960 you you're someone who has a broad range 174 00:07:44,770 --> 00:07:42,080 of interest in kind of controversial 175 00:07:48,339 --> 00:07:44,780 archaeology controversial leading-edge 176 00:07:50,339 --> 00:07:48,349 history parapsychology and you come at 177 00:07:53,350 --> 00:07:50,349 it of course from this thing called 178 00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:53,360 chaos magic which is kind of your point 179 00:07:59,200 --> 00:07:56,930 of entry but what really kind of brings 180 00:08:00,510 --> 00:07:59,210 us together is that although I'm usually 181 00:08:03,490 --> 00:08:00,520 coming at things from this kind of 182 00:08:06,459 --> 00:08:03,500 consciousness science spirituality thing 183 00:08:08,980 --> 00:08:06,469 what seems to really drive both of us if 184 00:08:12,700 --> 00:08:08,990 you get to the core of what we're 185 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:12,710 talking about is this common ground on 186 00:08:18,700 --> 00:08:15,770 this idea that we ought to be looking at 187 00:08:20,620 --> 00:08:18,710 the biggest picture questions if you 188 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:20,630 want to call them science questions that 189 00:08:24,490 --> 00:08:23,210 is who are we and why are we here and we 190 00:08:28,089 --> 00:08:24,500 always have to come back to those 191 00:08:30,159 --> 00:08:28,099 questions number one and if that isn't 192 00:08:32,940 --> 00:08:30,169 unique I think what does 193 00:08:36,279 --> 00:08:32,950 really bring us together is our 194 00:08:37,719 --> 00:08:36,289 understanding that that journey to 195 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:37,729 really say okay we're going to tackle 196 00:08:43,810 --> 00:08:40,490 those big-picture questions is gonna get 197 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:43,820 messy because once we get in there we 198 00:08:48,009 --> 00:08:46,250 find out how difficult it is to shake 199 00:08:50,889 --> 00:08:48,019 people from their cherished beliefs we 200 00:08:53,079 --> 00:08:50,899 get into all sorts of conspiracies we 201 00:08:55,420 --> 00:08:53,089 get into all sorts of distorted and 202 00:08:58,060 --> 00:08:55,430 misinformation that's thrown around with 203 00:09:00,340 --> 00:08:58,070 history and I just think you know maybe 204 00:09:03,519 --> 00:09:00,350 you want to comment on that but I think 205 00:09:05,860 --> 00:09:03,529 it's interesting that you your show and 206 00:09:07,420 --> 00:09:05,870 your books can come at things from one 207 00:09:09,220 --> 00:09:07,430 perspective and I'm really coming at 208 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:09,230 them from another and I thought it's so 209 00:09:16,569 --> 00:09:12,850 cool that we've found you know a real 210 00:09:18,519 --> 00:09:16,579 kindred kind of way to talk about this 211 00:09:20,290 --> 00:09:18,529 that is totally in sync so do you have 212 00:09:21,850 --> 00:09:20,300 any thoughts on that yeah I would 213 00:09:24,069 --> 00:09:21,860 absolutely agree I think we're both 214 00:09:28,050 --> 00:09:24,079 blind men you know fondling the same 215 00:09:31,540 --> 00:09:28,060 elephant at this point in time because 216 00:09:33,879 --> 00:09:31,550 there is if we do and I think this is a 217 00:09:36,430 --> 00:09:33,889 belief we share if we do need to or want 218 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:36,440 to move the discourse it does actually 219 00:09:43,509 --> 00:09:38,930 need data and evidence behind it and 220 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:43,519 that that sort of rigor is I think a 221 00:09:48,130 --> 00:09:45,890 shared way of approaching the elephant 222 00:09:50,019 --> 00:09:48,140 and I think that's why there's a general 223 00:09:52,060 --> 00:09:50,029 alignment in a lot of things we're 224 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:52,070 interested in and their implications and 225 00:09:57,400 --> 00:09:55,730 you're completely right that it doesn't 226 00:10:00,100 --> 00:09:57,410 really matter what angle you come at 227 00:10:03,069 --> 00:10:00,110 this element from what ends up happening 228 00:10:05,290 --> 00:10:03,079 is you quickly discover that money and 229 00:10:08,710 --> 00:10:05,300 power and politics are intimately 230 00:10:11,620 --> 00:10:08,720 involved in it because this is a the 231 00:10:13,870 --> 00:10:11,630 truth with a capital T is it's very 232 00:10:16,769 --> 00:10:13,880 valuable you either get to produce it or 233 00:10:19,689 --> 00:10:16,779 control it and it's one of those sort of 234 00:10:21,699 --> 00:10:19,699 eternal human conditions in a way really 235 00:10:24,309 --> 00:10:21,709 good and you know the reason we're going 236 00:10:26,860 --> 00:10:24,319 to kind of go into a little bit more of 237 00:10:30,189 --> 00:10:26,870 an introduction than I think we normally 238 00:10:32,189 --> 00:10:30,199 would is because I think this interview 239 00:10:35,460 --> 00:10:32,199 that you've done with John Brandenburg 240 00:10:38,680 --> 00:10:35,470 requires a little bit of 241 00:10:41,350 --> 00:10:38,690 contextualization to really make it mean 242 00:10:43,090 --> 00:10:41,360 something so before we start with dr. 243 00:10:43,810 --> 00:10:43,100 Brandenburg's theories which are 244 00:10:45,790 --> 00:10:43,820 extremely 245 00:10:48,910 --> 00:10:45,800 controversial and kind of take us in a 246 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:48,920 million places how about we introduce 247 00:10:55,450 --> 00:10:52,250 people to who the guy is basic bio do 248 00:10:57,730 --> 00:10:55,460 you want to kind of tell us who he is 249 00:10:59,230 --> 00:10:57,740 and I have his credentials here so if 250 00:11:01,240 --> 00:10:59,240 you want me to read those I can read 251 00:11:04,450 --> 00:11:01,250 those as well but tell us who John 252 00:11:08,350 --> 00:11:04,460 Brandenburg is sure so dr. Brandenburg 253 00:11:09,730 --> 00:11:08,360 is a plasma physicist who has spent any 254 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:09,740 number of years the last several decades 255 00:11:15,810 --> 00:11:12,890 occasionally with you know top secret 256 00:11:19,750 --> 00:11:15,820 clearance occasionally not working in 257 00:11:22,330 --> 00:11:19,760 you know the sort of privatized space 258 00:11:26,380 --> 00:11:22,340 program so he's X JPL he's worked on the 259 00:11:28,090 --> 00:11:26,390 Clementine mission he's worked in some 260 00:11:30,910 --> 00:11:28,100 of the companies that sort of fed into 261 00:11:33,820 --> 00:11:30,920 the Reagan Star Wars program and that's 262 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:33,830 his that's been his career in addition 263 00:11:38,730 --> 00:11:36,890 to that he has been part of the people 264 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:38,740 in the kind of early eighties 265 00:11:43,420 --> 00:11:40,970 constellated around someone like Richard 266 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:43,430 Hoagland I call them the Mars nerds and 267 00:11:47,620 --> 00:11:45,530 I say it with affection but this is a 268 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:47,630 collection of people in that world so 269 00:11:51,730 --> 00:11:49,370 with a science background but 270 00:11:53,170 --> 00:11:51,740 independently researching some of the 271 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:53,180 anomalous information that started to 272 00:11:58,300 --> 00:11:55,730 come out following 1976 273 00:12:00,010 --> 00:11:58,310 well Voyager sir Voyager 76 following 274 00:12:02,380 --> 00:12:00,020 some of the images we saw of Mars and 275 00:12:05,350 --> 00:12:02,390 that kind of information became quite 276 00:12:08,050 --> 00:12:05,360 controversial in the early 90s and then 277 00:12:11,860 --> 00:12:08,060 a fairly flimsy hit job was put on it 278 00:12:13,810 --> 00:12:11,870 and and it's never really returned to 279 00:12:16,210 --> 00:12:13,820 popular consciousness outside of a few 280 00:12:18,490 --> 00:12:16,220 movies again in the 90s but that's so 281 00:12:20,680 --> 00:12:18,500 dr. Brandenburg is a real life 282 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:20,690 up-and-down scientist and out of the 283 00:12:25,660 --> 00:12:24,650 hard science variety who is also and 284 00:12:27,700 --> 00:12:25,670 this is one of the things friendly 285 00:12:29,890 --> 00:12:27,710 enough we've spoken about this with 286 00:12:32,170 --> 00:12:29,900 other potential with regards to other 287 00:12:36,070 --> 00:12:32,180 potential guests Alex but there are 288 00:12:38,950 --> 00:12:36,080 aspects of him as a person that lead me 289 00:12:42,250 --> 00:12:38,960 to have a kind of different layer of 290 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:42,260 trust with him in that he he freely 291 00:12:46,300 --> 00:12:44,210 admits that and I think this is you know 292 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:46,310 fair and a nice thing to say about 293 00:12:50,710 --> 00:12:48,290 somebody freely admits he's a patriot he 294 00:12:52,900 --> 00:12:50,720 freely admits that he's a Christian so 295 00:12:55,180 --> 00:12:52,910 what we're dealing with someone who not 296 00:12:56,210 --> 00:12:55,190 only knows his apples but like his God 297 00:12:58,160 --> 00:12:56,220 won't let him lie 298 00:13:02,210 --> 00:12:58,170 now whether or not he's your God or mine 299 00:13:03,950 --> 00:13:02,220 like that I do believe that counts for 300 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:03,960 something especially when you're dealing 301 00:13:09,950 --> 00:13:07,410 with the world of such circuitous Co 302 00:13:11,470 --> 00:13:09,960 Intel and and disinformation you have 303 00:13:13,790 --> 00:13:11,480 someone who is an up and down 304 00:13:17,390 --> 00:13:13,800 all-american Christian who also happens 305 00:13:19,420 --> 00:13:17,400 to be very good and very and has the 306 00:13:22,340 --> 00:13:19,430 personality type of a hard scientist 307 00:13:24,050 --> 00:13:22,350 yeah and there's a couple of different 308 00:13:26,930 --> 00:13:24,060 interesting aspects of that that we can 309 00:13:29,630 --> 00:13:26,940 get into let me just fill in one detail 310 00:13:32,690 --> 00:13:29,640 I mean you say hard scientists if you 311 00:13:35,630 --> 00:13:32,700 scan the internet for this guy you're 312 00:13:37,900 --> 00:13:35,640 liable to see as you always will and 313 00:13:40,550 --> 00:13:37,910 anything that's interesting you know a 314 00:13:44,450 --> 00:13:40,560 lampooning of him in a number of 315 00:13:47,660 --> 00:13:44,460 different ways let's be clear Cal Davis 316 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:47,670 PhD theoretical plasma physics from 317 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:50,130 Lawrence Livermore National Laboratories 318 00:13:55,430 --> 00:13:52,890 that's top-notch folks I mean that's the 319 00:13:58,970 --> 00:13:55,440 real deal that's a nerdy scientist 320 00:14:00,800 --> 00:13:58,980 Sandia Labs JPL all the places rubbing 321 00:14:03,470 --> 00:14:00,810 shoulders with Carl Sagan you know 322 00:14:05,510 --> 00:14:03,480 personal relation exchanging emails and 323 00:14:08,690 --> 00:14:05,520 telephone calls and Richard Hoagland 324 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:08,700 this is the real deal so if you do run 325 00:14:15,560 --> 00:14:11,730 across you know that 90 second Google 326 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:15,570 search and this guy is portrayed as some 327 00:14:19,820 --> 00:14:18,450 kind of buffoon that's not the case as a 328 00:14:22,130 --> 00:14:19,830 matter of fact you know it just have to 329 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:22,140 share this little bit of story when I 330 00:14:26,420 --> 00:14:24,210 had a job over the summer when I was in 331 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:26,430 graduate school with Texas Instruments 332 00:14:30,980 --> 00:14:28,890 in Dallas long long time ago and I 333 00:14:32,420 --> 00:14:30,990 didn't know anything you know I just 334 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:32,430 didn't know anything and I went there in 335 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:35,250 I thought Texas Instruments oh they make 336 00:14:39,110 --> 00:14:36,930 these little calculators you know well 337 00:14:41,930 --> 00:14:39,120 no I mean Texas Instruments is a huge 338 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:41,940 defense contractor you know and when you 339 00:14:46,100 --> 00:14:44,010 get into the belly of the beast there 340 00:14:47,540 --> 00:14:46,110 you like you work in this little world 341 00:14:48,710 --> 00:14:47,550 like I didn't have any kind of clearance 342 00:14:50,570 --> 00:14:48,720 or anything like that so you're in this 343 00:14:53,570 --> 00:14:50,580 little compartmentalized world and then 344 00:14:55,310 --> 00:14:53,580 they're all 90% of is in this glass off 345 00:14:57,380 --> 00:14:55,320 thing you know these people you never 346 00:14:59,660 --> 00:14:57,390 see and never talk to but you did have 347 00:15:04,010 --> 00:14:59,670 some interaction with them and at Texas 348 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:04,020 Instruments everyone wore their badge of 349 00:15:09,250 --> 00:15:06,690 their ID badge proudly and it was 350 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:09,260 colored to show both your 351 00:15:15,610 --> 00:15:12,890 seniority and your security you know so 352 00:15:17,620 --> 00:15:15,620 the gold badgers were the people who had 353 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:17,630 twenty years and the gold badgers with 354 00:15:23,530 --> 00:15:19,610 metals would have like 25 or 30 years 355 00:15:25,660 --> 00:15:23,540 and when I saw Brandenburg even when I 356 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:25,670 saw him for the first time in some of 357 00:15:32,170 --> 00:15:28,730 his video presentations he reminded me 358 00:15:34,750 --> 00:15:32,180 of those kind of nerdy kind of guys who 359 00:15:37,090 --> 00:15:34,760 were deep into their science and at the 360 00:15:39,550 --> 00:15:37,100 same time deep into this 361 00:15:42,450 --> 00:15:39,560 military-industrial complex thing that 362 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:42,460 just breeds this kind of a little bit 363 00:15:47,860 --> 00:15:46,370 goofiness that is kind of hard to really 364 00:15:50,650 --> 00:15:47,870 put your finger on but they kind of 365 00:15:52,330 --> 00:15:50,660 laugh a little bit more that they're 366 00:15:54,820 --> 00:15:52,340 kind of the wrong things sometimes I 367 00:15:57,760 --> 00:15:54,830 just don't have quite the smoothness I 368 00:16:00,790 --> 00:15:57,770 guess that you see with some of the more 369 00:16:03,220 --> 00:16:00,800 slick people who are in the ivory tower 370 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:03,230 and are generally you know on the TV 371 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:04,850 circuit and stuff like that and that is 372 00:16:10,030 --> 00:16:08,090 not to disparage him in any way it's 373 00:16:12,190 --> 00:16:10,040 just of course not it's it's a 374 00:16:13,660 --> 00:16:12,200 personality difference with academics 375 00:16:15,970 --> 00:16:13,670 they are the ones that are paid to talk 376 00:16:17,860 --> 00:16:15,980 as in there are those whose job it is to 377 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:17,870 stand in front of an auditorium of 378 00:16:24,250 --> 00:16:21,170 students and essentially ideally charm 379 00:16:25,870 --> 00:16:24,260 them into learning things at word and 380 00:16:28,870 --> 00:16:25,880 then there are the other scientists who 381 00:16:31,420 --> 00:16:28,880 were there like doing the work and and 382 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:31,430 you yeah it's it's a personality type 383 00:16:37,810 --> 00:16:33,770 thing he's a great guy I really enjoyed 384 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:37,820 my chat with him I I follow his data I 385 00:16:42,070 --> 00:16:40,850 believe yeah I don't think he's lying I 386 00:16:43,900 --> 00:16:42,080 can guarantee you that as a matter of 387 00:16:45,330 --> 00:16:43,910 fact I think that I think that's fairly 388 00:16:50,140 --> 00:16:45,340 open-and-shut as to his interpretation 389 00:16:52,300 --> 00:16:50,150 that's his own I depart from him in some 390 00:16:55,300 --> 00:16:52,310 of the interpretations of it but he's a 391 00:16:57,310 --> 00:16:55,310 he says he's certainly a he's a unique 392 00:16:58,390 --> 00:16:57,320 character compared to if you're not 393 00:17:01,320 --> 00:16:58,400 familiar with the world 394 00:17:04,120 --> 00:17:01,330 he's definitely that kind of character 395 00:17:05,410 --> 00:17:04,130 dr. Brandenburg welcome to skeptic oh 396 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:05,420 thank you very much for your time 397 00:17:08,970 --> 00:17:07,730 oh well it's just it's a great pleasure 398 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:08,980 and honor to be here 399 00:17:14,110 --> 00:17:11,810 wonderful so we've just been chatting 400 00:17:15,819 --> 00:17:14,120 offline I'm a huge fan of your work I'm 401 00:17:17,569 --> 00:17:15,829 a huge fan of your book but for 402 00:17:20,390 --> 00:17:17,579 listeners who 403 00:17:23,630 --> 00:17:20,400 maybe coming to your research brand-new 404 00:17:27,010 --> 00:17:23,640 would you mind giving us a bit of a sort 405 00:17:30,790 --> 00:17:27,020 of overview of your background oh I am 406 00:17:33,410 --> 00:17:30,800 well I just grew up in America I'm a 407 00:17:36,620 --> 00:17:33,420 project of a very standard American 408 00:17:39,980 --> 00:17:36,630 upbringing and my father encouraged me 409 00:17:45,260 --> 00:17:39,990 to go into physics as my uncle was also 410 00:17:48,770 --> 00:17:45,270 a physicist so I my primary um mission 411 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:48,780 in life has been to be a physicist 412 00:17:56,570 --> 00:17:52,770 working on plasmas for energy fusion 413 00:18:00,290 --> 00:17:56,580 energy and and also for national defense 414 00:18:03,049 --> 00:18:00,300 of space and by the way if a plasma 415 00:18:05,299 --> 00:18:03,059 physicist can't work on fusion the first 416 00:18:08,330 --> 00:18:05,309 thing he does is he goes into space it's 417 00:18:12,919 --> 00:18:08,340 like you can't make money shipping cargo 418 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:12,929 you become a pirate yeah okay so now 419 00:18:18,380 --> 00:18:15,650 that we know who dr. John Brandenburg is 420 00:18:21,169 --> 00:18:18,390 let's move into the main points I think 421 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:21,179 that come out of the interview and again 422 00:18:25,430 --> 00:18:23,490 I'm going to first talk about those with 423 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:25,440 Gordon white so the first one would be 424 00:18:31,910 --> 00:18:28,770 this idea of reclaiming history I think 425 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:31,920 you'll see what I mean here goes when 426 00:18:37,130 --> 00:18:34,050 you joined me to talk about your 427 00:18:40,340 --> 00:18:37,140 fabulous book starships that's what I 428 00:18:43,549 --> 00:18:40,350 felt you had really nailed completely is 429 00:18:46,299 --> 00:18:43,559 this idea that there is a history here 430 00:18:49,130 --> 00:18:46,309 there's a lot of known data points 431 00:18:51,980 --> 00:18:49,140 associated with that history and all we 432 00:18:54,580 --> 00:18:51,990 have to do is connect the dots on those 433 00:18:57,890 --> 00:18:54,590 data points and we can reclaim that 434 00:19:00,169 --> 00:18:57,900 history and I think you tried to do the 435 00:19:02,570 --> 00:19:00,179 same thing in this interview talk about 436 00:19:04,450 --> 00:19:02,580 reclaiming this history about our space 437 00:19:07,490 --> 00:19:04,460 program and about Mars in particular 438 00:19:10,010 --> 00:19:07,500 sure so you're completely right Alex 439 00:19:12,380 --> 00:19:10,020 that in the early 20th century it was 440 00:19:15,350 --> 00:19:12,390 sort of self-evident that what we 441 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:15,360 assumed that when we eventually got to 442 00:19:19,310 --> 00:19:17,610 Mars or when we built a telescope that 443 00:19:21,260 --> 00:19:19,320 was powerful enough to see things that 444 00:19:22,790 --> 00:19:21,270 we would see ruins and the remains of a 445 00:19:24,770 --> 00:19:22,800 civilization or even one that still 446 00:19:26,930 --> 00:19:24,780 existed and that was normal that was New 447 00:19:28,909 --> 00:19:26,940 York Times stuff it didn't break 448 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:28,919 civilization there's this kind of meme 449 00:19:32,630 --> 00:19:29,850 in 450 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:32,640 ufology that the quote-unquote reason 451 00:19:36,799 --> 00:19:34,610 why this stuff is covered up is because 452 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:36,809 civilization will collapse that's not 453 00:19:40,610 --> 00:19:38,610 correct what we we thought that 454 00:19:45,620 --> 00:19:40,620 beforehand but somewhere in the mid 20th 455 00:19:48,370 --> 00:19:45,630 century the presence of artificial 456 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:48,380 structures elsewhere in the solar system 457 00:19:53,360 --> 00:19:51,330 got became a national security interest 458 00:19:56,450 --> 00:19:53,370 and that happened with the formation of 459 00:19:58,970 --> 00:19:56,460 NASA NASA emerged NASA is essentially a 460 00:20:03,799 --> 00:19:58,980 paramilitary organization in that it is 461 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:03,809 a publicly funded scientific well you 462 00:20:07,850 --> 00:20:05,490 know government-funded scientific body 463 00:20:09,710 --> 00:20:07,860 unless it finds something of national 464 00:20:11,690 --> 00:20:09,720 security importance and then it becomes 465 00:20:13,909 --> 00:20:11,700 military again but the space program for 466 00:20:15,860 --> 00:20:13,919 the first eleven years in the u.s. was 467 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:15,870 military and NASA emerged out of that 468 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:17,970 and it had you know former SS major 469 00:20:23,630 --> 00:20:21,330 Wernher von Braun as running the Apollo 470 00:20:25,190 --> 00:20:23,640 program and so on so baked into NASA at 471 00:20:26,630 --> 00:20:25,200 the beginning of or the middle of the 472 00:20:31,039 --> 00:20:26,640 twentieth century beginning the Cold War 473 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:31,049 is this notion that let us explore space 474 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:35,010 when it becomes when and the clue is 475 00:20:38,450 --> 00:20:36,330 when because this is in NASA's 476 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:38,460 foundational policy documents from the 477 00:20:43,730 --> 00:20:40,530 likes of the Brookings Institute when we 478 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:43,740 find something it is of national 479 00:20:50,360 --> 00:20:47,250 security implications and that will that 480 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:50,370 will make that top secret so here then 481 00:21:00,770 --> 00:20:53,090 is Gordon and dr. John Brandenburg on 482 00:21:04,130 --> 00:21:00,780 reclaiming space history Mars arm always 483 00:21:08,649 --> 00:21:04,140 fascinated me as a child growing up in 484 00:21:11,570 --> 00:21:08,659 the Space Age in America where we were 485 00:21:14,390 --> 00:21:11,580 mesmerized by the mercury in the moon 486 00:21:16,549 --> 00:21:14,400 race the whole drama of the mercury 487 00:21:19,850 --> 00:21:16,559 program the Gemini program finally 488 00:21:24,350 --> 00:21:19,860 Apollo the landing on the moon and 489 00:21:26,690 --> 00:21:24,360 watching of course the Russians be ahead 490 00:21:29,510 --> 00:21:26,700 at first and then struggle you know the 491 00:21:32,180 --> 00:21:29,520 very brave cosmonauts out there in space 492 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:32,190 also and finally fall behind with the 493 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:35,970 destruction of their big n1 rocket so 494 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:37,530 they couldn't make it make make they 495 00:21:41,510 --> 00:21:39,090 couldn't make it to the moon whereas we 496 00:21:43,220 --> 00:21:41,520 did and in the middle of this is Wernher 497 00:21:46,549 --> 00:21:43,230 von Braun 498 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:46,559 a rather anomalous character didn't he 499 00:21:51,260 --> 00:21:49,410 used to work for the Nazis sort of the 500 00:21:54,740 --> 00:21:51,270 question that came to my mind when I was 501 00:21:56,870 --> 00:21:54,750 a kid and but there he was a now 502 00:22:00,890 --> 00:21:56,880 transformed into an all-american hero 503 00:22:03,530 --> 00:22:00,900 and he wants to go to the moon but he 504 00:22:06,470 --> 00:22:03,540 really wants to go to Mars that is his 505 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:06,480 real goal and then he says something 506 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:08,970 very cryptic in the middle after landing 507 00:22:17,030 --> 00:22:13,290 on the moon successfully he says well 508 00:22:22,039 --> 00:22:17,040 the first people we should send to Mars 509 00:22:25,909 --> 00:22:22,049 should include archaeologists and I 510 00:22:28,010 --> 00:22:25,919 remember hearing of that when I was 511 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:28,020 young and thinking that's a peculiar 512 00:22:37,010 --> 00:22:29,610 thing to say uh 513 00:22:39,919 --> 00:22:37,020 but at the time uh the NASA the US 514 00:22:44,060 --> 00:22:39,929 government was heavily influenced by the 515 00:22:48,549 --> 00:22:44,070 work of possible role as it turns out it 516 00:22:52,820 --> 00:22:48,559 and even though many scientists uh 517 00:22:56,140 --> 00:22:52,830 basically discarded the work of Percival 518 00:23:01,360 --> 00:22:56,150 Lowell uh and of course the canals 519 00:23:06,020 --> 00:23:01,370 within the US government uh there was um 520 00:23:08,750 --> 00:23:06,030 a kind of view that well Percival Lowell 521 00:23:13,370 --> 00:23:08,760 may very well have been right because it 522 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:13,380 Mars gave the appearance of being a a 523 00:23:21,430 --> 00:23:16,530 planet that was once like Earth I mean 524 00:23:23,870 --> 00:23:21,440 we found upon investigation on Mars uh 525 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:23,880 well the first thing we saw was craters 526 00:23:30,350 --> 00:23:27,090 and that was well we didn't see any 527 00:23:32,630 --> 00:23:30,360 canals we found a lot of craters and so 528 00:23:34,730 --> 00:23:32,640 we're sending probes to Mars in addition 529 00:23:39,500 --> 00:23:34,740 to the big moon right the big drama of 530 00:23:42,169 --> 00:23:39,510 the moon race and it's every every 531 00:23:44,450 --> 00:23:42,179 American knew that our eventual goal was 532 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:44,460 to go to Mars and all the science 533 00:23:48,740 --> 00:23:46,770 fiction movies were about going to Mars 534 00:23:51,169 --> 00:23:48,750 and finding civilizations there and 535 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:51,179 everything like that was all very I 536 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:53,010 don't know how many great be science 537 00:23:58,610 --> 00:23:55,410 fiction movies I saw about going to Mars 538 00:24:02,960 --> 00:23:58,620 as a kid and Saturday afternoon man 539 00:24:05,270 --> 00:24:02,970 named popcorn the hot dog for lunch that 540 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:05,280 was that was the way to spend the 541 00:24:10,550 --> 00:24:07,530 afternoon in my hometown yeah I mean 542 00:24:12,500 --> 00:24:10,560 it's the Verna von Braun quote is 543 00:24:15,020 --> 00:24:12,510 interesting and when you mentioned the 544 00:24:17,210 --> 00:24:15,030 sort of widespread belief in canals of 545 00:24:19,190 --> 00:24:17,220 Mars it really was widespread I mean the 546 00:24:21,260 --> 00:24:19,200 New York Times in I believe it was the 547 00:24:22,910 --> 00:24:21,270 30s was running articles about 548 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:22,920 hypothetically how we could communicate 549 00:24:28,850 --> 00:24:25,650 with these evident cultures and Mars by 550 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:28,860 doing things like burning pie into the 551 00:24:32,330 --> 00:24:30,810 grasslands in Eurasia so that they could 552 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:32,340 potentially see it so it's always struck 553 00:24:35,900 --> 00:24:33,690 me as very interesting and we'll get 554 00:24:37,190 --> 00:24:35,910 onto this story in the show it's always 555 00:24:39,740 --> 00:24:37,200 struck me as very interesting in the 556 00:24:42,020 --> 00:24:39,750 first half of the 20th century it was 557 00:24:44,570 --> 00:24:42,030 taken what not maybe first third taken 558 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:44,580 is self-evident and not that big of a 559 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:47,250 deal that there was either in existing 560 00:24:54,170 --> 00:24:49,410 culture on Mars or previous cultures on 561 00:24:56,860 --> 00:24:54,180 Mars and it's only as we move into the 562 00:25:00,980 --> 00:24:56,870 Cold War period or the post-war period 563 00:25:03,530 --> 00:25:00,990 that that starts to get a bit fishy but 564 00:25:05,540 --> 00:25:03,540 it's important your Wernher von Braun 565 00:25:08,120 --> 00:25:05,550 quote is is correct it's not just there 566 00:25:10,790 --> 00:25:08,130 I mean NASA's founding documents 567 00:25:15,230 --> 00:25:10,800 well necessary think tanks that were 568 00:25:17,750 --> 00:25:15,240 providing sort of strategy to NASA had 569 00:25:21,350 --> 00:25:17,760 in them the expectation that we would 570 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:21,360 find ruined artifacts it was part of 571 00:25:26,330 --> 00:25:23,250 NASA's DNA from the beginning that we 572 00:25:28,550 --> 00:25:26,340 would our expectation find ruined 573 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:28,560 artifacts on Mars yeah absolutely 574 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:30,690 so it's it from the beginning it hasn't 575 00:25:35,690 --> 00:25:32,970 been that out of an idea and and you've 576 00:25:37,490 --> 00:25:35,700 been I mean you you yeah and you were as 577 00:25:39,650 --> 00:25:37,500 you saying you are a plasma physicist 578 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:39,660 but you have worked in some of the 579 00:25:44,180 --> 00:25:42,690 companies directly over the course of 580 00:25:46,850 --> 00:25:44,190 your career that have been involved in 581 00:25:51,380 --> 00:25:46,860 this kind of you know in his off planet 582 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:51,390 science yes absolutely I was part of the 583 00:25:59,120 --> 00:25:54,930 Clementine mission to the moon where we 584 00:26:03,170 --> 00:25:59,130 found billions of tons of you know 585 00:26:06,230 --> 00:26:03,180 frozen ice at the holes of the moon 586 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:06,240 enough to support a large human that the 587 00:26:09,980 --> 00:26:08,010 moon basically has 588 00:26:13,010 --> 00:26:09,990 everything required to sustain a human 589 00:26:14,990 --> 00:26:13,020 population except water and now after 590 00:26:17,030 --> 00:26:15,000 the Clementine mission it became 591 00:26:20,270 --> 00:26:17,040 apparent that it had everything that you 592 00:26:24,260 --> 00:26:20,280 could support a large lunar colony on 593 00:26:27,250 --> 00:26:24,270 the moon because there was an abundance 594 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:27,260 of water certainly enough for a small 595 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:29,970 technologically intensive society to 596 00:26:37,700 --> 00:26:34,050 exist there so my background I basically 597 00:26:42,470 --> 00:26:37,710 went to school as to major in physics 598 00:26:46,190 --> 00:26:42,480 and I eventually then went on I was good 599 00:26:49,970 --> 00:26:46,200 at it and then I went on to work on 600 00:26:52,990 --> 00:26:49,980 plasma physics for energy fusion energy 601 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:53,000 a problem that still fascinates me and 602 00:26:59,450 --> 00:26:56,250 my goal at the time you must remember 603 00:27:02,330 --> 00:26:59,460 that the energy crisis became very acute 604 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:02,340 in our country after the 73 war when the 605 00:27:09,590 --> 00:27:05,850 oil was embargoed so too to me to work 606 00:27:11,300 --> 00:27:09,600 on energy was part of the my task of 607 00:27:13,910 --> 00:27:11,310 defending the country and I've always 608 00:27:16,310 --> 00:27:13,920 been a very patriotic sort of care all 609 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:16,320 of my uncles fought in world war ii in 610 00:27:23,360 --> 00:27:21,690 the combat so it was a just a family 611 00:27:27,620 --> 00:27:23,370 tradition that we would serve the 612 00:27:31,190 --> 00:27:27,630 country in one capacity or another so I 613 00:27:34,340 --> 00:27:31,200 then became a plasma physicist and got 614 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:34,350 my masters and then PhD after my 615 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:37,610 finishing my four-year bachelor's degree 616 00:27:45,500 --> 00:27:42,570 then the the funding mysteriously for 617 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:45,510 fusion energy suddenly kind of dried up 618 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:48,090 under the Reagan administration and all 619 00:27:53,750 --> 00:27:51,810 of us were basically all of us plasma 620 00:27:56,060 --> 00:27:53,760 physicists who had trained to work on 621 00:27:59,200 --> 00:27:56,070 making a brighter warmer future for 622 00:28:03,260 --> 00:27:59,210 Humanity were basically dragooned into 623 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:03,270 working on directed-energy weapons for 624 00:28:12,290 --> 00:28:07,290 the Star Wars defense in space and but I 625 00:28:16,130 --> 00:28:12,300 had by that time become very interested 626 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:16,140 in Mars I've become so fascinated with 627 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:18,450 the artifacts that have been apparent 628 00:28:21,710 --> 00:28:20,010 artifacts that have been found on Mars 629 00:28:23,750 --> 00:28:21,720 in 1970 630 00:28:26,930 --> 00:28:23,760 six the face on Mars and the pyramid 631 00:28:28,910 --> 00:28:26,940 next to it inside Oh Nia which I found 632 00:28:31,700 --> 00:28:28,920 out later was supposed to be the prime 633 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:31,710 landing site of the Viking missions the 634 00:28:37,490 --> 00:28:34,530 Viking missions were after our Apollo 635 00:28:41,510 --> 00:28:37,500 moon mission success were just a 636 00:28:46,250 --> 00:28:41,520 capstone on American kind of space 637 00:28:47,900 --> 00:28:46,260 supremacy basically we landed on Mars 638 00:28:52,340 --> 00:28:47,910 something the Russians had not been 639 00:28:53,870 --> 00:28:52,350 successful at doing and we have so first 640 00:28:56,210 --> 00:28:53,880 thing we did is sample the atmosphere 641 00:28:57,940 --> 00:28:56,220 and look at its isotopic composition 642 00:29:04,310 --> 00:28:57,950 that's where the US government 643 00:29:08,540 --> 00:29:04,320 apparently discovered a big surprise but 644 00:29:10,700 --> 00:29:08,550 also they photographed arm they had 645 00:29:13,130 --> 00:29:10,710 begun photographing Mars at close range 646 00:29:15,260 --> 00:29:13,140 under the Mariners they discovered all 647 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:15,270 these extinct water channels confirming 648 00:29:22,250 --> 00:29:19,650 this picture of Mars as a past of having 649 00:29:23,990 --> 00:29:22,260 an earth-like past um 650 00:29:26,030 --> 00:29:24,000 the Mariner mission just to jump in 651 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:26,040 there dr. Brenda Berg before we talk 652 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:28,650 about and they're the sort of crazy 653 00:29:32,510 --> 00:29:30,330 politics that goes around the 654 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:32,520 photographing of the face of Mars but 655 00:29:36,590 --> 00:29:34,290 it's my understanding that our god 656 00:29:38,210 --> 00:29:36,600 showed up at JPL photo lab when Mariner 657 00:29:41,870 --> 00:29:38,220 was still two weeks out from the planet 658 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:41,880 so from the very beginning from the very 659 00:29:45,530 --> 00:29:43,890 beginning we know that they were 660 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:45,540 expecting to find something that needed 661 00:29:52,130 --> 00:29:47,730 to be they were expecting to find a dead 662 00:29:54,050 --> 00:29:52,140 civilization on Mars I talked to people 663 00:29:56,780 --> 00:29:54,060 who had retired from Jet Propulsion lab 664 00:29:59,210 --> 00:29:56,790 who where they were helping on the 665 00:30:03,160 --> 00:29:59,220 common time mission of the Moon by that 666 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:03,170 time in late 80s and they said that the 667 00:30:10,370 --> 00:30:07,770 yes the Mariner 9 was was going to go 668 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:10,380 into close orbit around Mars and take 669 00:30:15,470 --> 00:30:12,330 very high-resolution pictures of the 670 00:30:18,830 --> 00:30:15,480 surface and suddenly armed guards showed 671 00:30:20,870 --> 00:30:18,840 up at all the photo labs so that no 672 00:30:24,620 --> 00:30:20,880 photographs could come out of there 673 00:30:29,330 --> 00:30:24,630 without official sanction in other words 674 00:30:35,710 --> 00:30:29,340 the mission to Mars became partly 675 00:30:38,889 --> 00:30:35,720 classified and armed and yes it is 676 00:30:41,989 --> 00:30:38,899 evidence that the US government expected 677 00:30:45,129 --> 00:30:41,999 or at least entertained a strong 678 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:45,139 possibility they were going to find a 679 00:30:50,450 --> 00:30:47,970 dead civilization on Mars one thing they 680 00:30:52,999 --> 00:30:50,460 had found out from the earlier flyby 681 00:30:55,729 --> 00:30:53,009 missions of Mars is even those were 682 00:30:58,159 --> 00:30:55,739 craters on Mars there were a lot less 683 00:31:00,710 --> 00:30:58,169 craters than they actually had reason to 684 00:31:04,549 --> 00:31:00,720 expect and Carl Sagan pointed out this 685 00:31:09,049 --> 00:31:04,559 meant some past erosion like on earth 686 00:31:11,239 --> 00:31:09,059 had occurred on massive our own herd on 687 00:31:13,909 --> 00:31:11,249 Mars other words Mars did not look like 688 00:31:16,070 --> 00:31:13,919 the moon it looked it was actually 689 00:31:17,659 --> 00:31:16,080 rather sparsely cratered and next it's 690 00:31:20,090 --> 00:31:17,669 next to the asteroid belt you would 691 00:31:22,430 --> 00:31:20,100 expected it to be heavily cratered if it 692 00:31:24,409 --> 00:31:22,440 didn't have an earth-like past but since 693 00:31:26,539 --> 00:31:24,419 it was only sparsely created that meant 694 00:31:28,669 --> 00:31:26,549 something had gone through just like an 695 00:31:32,090 --> 00:31:28,679 eraser on a chalkboard erased all of the 696 00:31:38,479 --> 00:31:32,100 old craters so only a few new ones that 697 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:38,489 had been able to be preserved so the 698 00:31:43,539 --> 00:31:41,730 u.s. government expected or at least 699 00:31:46,099 --> 00:31:43,549 thought there was a strong possibility 700 00:31:49,639 --> 00:31:46,109 they would find a dead civilization on 701 00:31:51,830 --> 00:31:49,649 Mars we'll go on to the next point 702 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:51,840 thinking of the movie a few good men 703 00:31:57,109 --> 00:31:54,690 where Jack Nicholson is on the stand and 704 00:31:59,419 --> 00:31:57,119 Tom Cruise is saying I want the truth 705 00:32:01,149 --> 00:31:59,429 and he says you can hand all that truth 706 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:01,159 you don't need sneers in the cab and 707 00:32:06,889 --> 00:32:03,210 what I think it's so awesome about that 708 00:32:10,190 --> 00:32:06,899 is we live in a you can't handle the 709 00:32:12,619 --> 00:32:10,200 truth world and by that I mean we accept 710 00:32:15,470 --> 00:32:12,629 that we can't handle the truth and when 711 00:32:17,180 --> 00:32:15,480 they tell us move on you don't you don't 712 00:32:20,930 --> 00:32:17,190 want to know this what they're really 713 00:32:23,899 --> 00:32:20,940 saying is true you really don't want to 714 00:32:26,359 --> 00:32:23,909 know the truth I found that on this show 715 00:32:28,460 --> 00:32:26,369 is that you know you encounter people 716 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:28,470 and and we encounter them in day to day 717 00:32:32,149 --> 00:32:30,450 life or you encounter when you do an 718 00:32:34,159 --> 00:32:32,159 interview show like this and you talk to 719 00:32:36,590 --> 00:32:34,169 people who have opposing views and you 720 00:32:40,070 --> 00:32:36,600 go what about the data and they just 721 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:40,080 don't want to go there so if you want to 722 00:32:44,210 --> 00:32:42,690 talk about 9/11 and you want to talk 723 00:32:45,590 --> 00:32:44,220 about it's proven that there was 724 00:32:47,730 --> 00:32:45,600 foreknowledge because there is all this 725 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:47,740 stock trading and we can go and look 726 00:32:51,810 --> 00:32:50,530 at it they don't want to go there 727 00:32:54,870 --> 00:32:51,820 because they don't want to even 728 00:32:56,970 --> 00:32:54,880 contemplate the idea that their 729 00:32:59,370 --> 00:32:56,980 government could do some of these things 730 00:33:01,650 --> 00:32:59,380 that they know that their government can 731 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:01,660 do so it to me it's almost like a 732 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:05,050 catch-22 in that you can't handle the 733 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:05,650 truth 734 00:33:16,410 --> 00:33:12,970 rounded around in a circle because the 735 00:33:19,110 --> 00:33:16,420 truth is knowable and that's what I 736 00:33:21,540 --> 00:33:19,120 think was one of your opening remarks to 737 00:33:24,419 --> 00:33:21,550 this interview is that you like to come 738 00:33:27,150 --> 00:33:24,429 back to the data you like to come back 739 00:33:30,150 --> 00:33:27,160 to the history whether it's archeology 740 00:33:34,260 --> 00:33:30,160 or history or whatever and the data here 741 00:33:37,910 --> 00:33:34,270 folks is pretty easy to put your hands 742 00:33:40,830 --> 00:33:37,920 on and pretty easy to verify some of the 743 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:40,840 extraordinary things that Brandenburg is 744 00:33:46,410 --> 00:33:43,450 saying in this interview and the truth 745 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:46,420 is you don't go there because you really 746 00:33:49,980 --> 00:33:48,010 can't handle the truth that's the only 747 00:33:52,290 --> 00:33:49,990 thing that's keeping people back yeah I 748 00:33:54,750 --> 00:33:52,300 couldn't agree more I am told a story on 749 00:33:57,270 --> 00:33:54,760 a podcast that I was on over the weekend 750 00:33:58,980 --> 00:33:57,280 I have a friend of mine very different 751 00:34:00,600 --> 00:33:58,990 she's extremely intelligent she used to 752 00:34:04,470 --> 00:34:00,610 work for the Financial Times and so on 753 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:04,480 and speaking of Verner von Braun I just 754 00:34:06,510 --> 00:34:05,770 happened to mention that the guy who ran 755 00:34:08,010 --> 00:34:06,520 the Apollo program 756 00:34:09,419 --> 00:34:08,020 now this isn't forbidden history in any 757 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:09,429 way this is just in the books you'll 758 00:34:13,919 --> 00:34:12,010 find it in Wikipedia was an SS major for 759 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:13,929 the Nazis and she just couldn't 760 00:34:18,570 --> 00:34:15,490 literally could not handle the truth 761 00:34:21,210 --> 00:34:18,580 like her mind just rejected it SS when 762 00:34:22,980 --> 00:34:21,220 all that means I mean you know and he 763 00:34:24,899 --> 00:34:22,990 joined this idea that he was a good Nazi 764 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:24,909 is probably not correct because he was a 765 00:34:29,790 --> 00:34:26,530 believer he joined two years before the 766 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:29,800 war so he people he left it he wasn't 767 00:34:32,970 --> 00:34:31,210 defending his country he's like no no no 768 00:34:36,720 --> 00:34:32,980 mr. Hitler I think I like what you do 769 00:34:39,180 --> 00:34:36,730 and that just messed with her head she 770 00:34:40,830 --> 00:34:39,190 and it's to your point about not being 771 00:34:43,530 --> 00:34:40,840 able to handle the truth 772 00:34:45,389 --> 00:34:43,540 uh this is it's almost a Gnostic 773 00:34:49,139 --> 00:34:45,399 realization but their reality of people 774 00:34:52,340 --> 00:34:49,149 it's extremely dissociative to sort of 775 00:34:55,290 --> 00:34:52,350 experience that the a government or a 776 00:34:56,550 --> 00:34:55,300 faction within the government sees this 777 00:34:59,849 --> 00:34:56,560 and when it comes to what we're talking 778 00:35:01,050 --> 00:34:59,859 about in space here's how one thing is 779 00:35:04,230 --> 00:35:01,060 verifiable 780 00:35:06,450 --> 00:35:04,240 can prove based on this conversation and 781 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:06,460 some casual research afterwards that 782 00:35:12,690 --> 00:35:09,370 there is a section of the anglo-american 783 00:35:16,380 --> 00:35:12,700 military that up and down believes there 784 00:35:18,870 --> 00:35:16,390 are artificial remains elsewhere in the 785 00:35:20,460 --> 00:35:18,880 solar system whether there are or not is 786 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:20,470 actually frankly open to interpretation 787 00:35:25,410 --> 00:35:24,130 but the policy changes it is self 788 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:25,420 evident in the policy over the last 789 00:35:28,830 --> 00:35:27,490 seventy years that an element of 790 00:35:31,500 --> 00:35:28,840 particularly the American 791 00:35:32,790 --> 00:35:31,510 military-industrial establishment up and 792 00:35:35,610 --> 00:35:32,800 down believes there are artificial 793 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:35,620 remains around the solar system and it 794 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:37,330 is affecting policy it's affecting 795 00:35:43,140 --> 00:35:38,770 internal policy and it's affecting 796 00:35:46,260 --> 00:35:43,150 off-planet policy real science and the 797 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:46,270 big leagues especially when there's big 798 00:35:53,700 --> 00:35:49,090 things at stake like the human place in 799 00:35:55,890 --> 00:35:53,710 the cosmos uh it gets very personal and 800 00:35:58,020 --> 00:35:55,900 people don't always play by the rules 801 00:36:00,060 --> 00:35:58,030 you're taught in grade school about how 802 00:36:02,310 --> 00:36:00,070 science the scientific method works oh 803 00:36:04,950 --> 00:36:02,320 yes you're singing The Skeptical theme 804 00:36:07,740 --> 00:36:04,960 song here it's more sometimes it's more 805 00:36:09,630 --> 00:36:07,750 like silverback gorillas roaring at each 806 00:36:12,210 --> 00:36:09,640 other in the forest and pounding their 807 00:36:15,630 --> 00:36:12,220 chests at each other than it is a 808 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:15,640 scientific discourse absolutely now 809 00:36:21,090 --> 00:36:19,210 let's go back to wynn to 1976 where i 810 00:36:25,470 --> 00:36:21,100 think i'm in agreement on this this is 811 00:36:28,530 --> 00:36:25,480 when at a US government or deep state 812 00:36:32,370 --> 00:36:28,540 level they have definitive proof yes 813 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:32,380 that that suddenly they know they they 814 00:36:37,110 --> 00:36:34,330 in fact take a picture of the of the 815 00:36:40,530 --> 00:36:37,120 face of Cydonia everybody sees it looks 816 00:36:42,780 --> 00:36:40,540 like a face at a certain level the US 817 00:36:44,220 --> 00:36:42,790 government has been expecting to find 818 00:36:48,420 --> 00:36:44,230 something like that in fact they found 819 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:48,430 two pyramids at Elysium earlier and they 820 00:36:53,220 --> 00:36:50,890 actually took two pictures I have them 821 00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:53,230 in the book they came back around and 822 00:36:59,130 --> 00:36:56,050 with great difficulty managed to snap 823 00:37:01,320 --> 00:36:59,140 pictures of the pyramids at morning 824 00:37:05,100 --> 00:37:01,330 where the earlier picture was in late 825 00:37:09,180 --> 00:37:05,110 afternoon uh and confirmed that it these 826 00:37:12,140 --> 00:37:09,190 were pyramids I think to anyone anyone 827 00:37:15,210 --> 00:37:12,150 in the US government we're talking 828 00:37:16,500 --> 00:37:15,220 administrators and military officials 829 00:37:19,980 --> 00:37:16,510 would just look at this and say well 830 00:37:22,410 --> 00:37:19,990 that looks like a pyramid to me and so 831 00:37:27,210 --> 00:37:22,420 you know Penn State they knew that they 832 00:37:31,290 --> 00:37:27,220 had discovered their earlier expectation 833 00:37:33,030 --> 00:37:31,300 was being rewarded by the time of 1976 834 00:37:37,740 --> 00:37:33,040 when they took a picture of the face on 835 00:37:39,930 --> 00:37:37,750 Mars at Cydonia and then one month later 836 00:37:42,720 --> 00:37:39,940 they brought the spacecraft again around 837 00:37:45,780 --> 00:37:42,730 and took a second confirming shot at a 838 00:37:50,700 --> 00:37:45,790 different lighting of the famous frame 839 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:50,710 78 13 and this clearly shows there's a 840 00:37:57,240 --> 00:37:53,530 pyramid a five sided pyramid near the 841 00:38:01,170 --> 00:37:57,250 face within about five kilometers and so 842 00:38:05,010 --> 00:38:01,180 they're there for in fact everything is 843 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:05,020 settled at that point in the minds of 844 00:38:09,030 --> 00:38:08,290 people who are used to doing science in 845 00:38:12,870 --> 00:38:09,040 the big leagues 846 00:38:15,089 --> 00:38:12,880 that means bingo we have it absolutely 847 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:15,099 from from the minds of people who don't 848 00:38:19,589 --> 00:38:16,570 understand science very well like 849 00:38:21,240 --> 00:38:19,599 science journalists that's not actually 850 00:38:24,060 --> 00:38:21,250 the case because when you're talking 851 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:24,070 about additional photos of Cydonia some 852 00:38:28,530 --> 00:38:26,170 of the other anecdotes you have in a 853 00:38:30,180 --> 00:38:28,540 book into around your involvement with 854 00:38:32,250 --> 00:38:30,190 independent Mars researchers like 855 00:38:36,990 --> 00:38:32,260 Richard Hoagland and Vince DiPietro 856 00:38:38,820 --> 00:38:37,000 Vince almost came to blows over you know 857 00:38:41,010 --> 00:38:38,830 some of the some of the attempted 858 00:38:42,060 --> 00:38:41,020 takedowns of the cydonia face I think 859 00:38:43,260 --> 00:38:42,070 it's probably important that we talk 860 00:38:45,630 --> 00:38:43,270 about that because I'm just thinking of 861 00:38:47,430 --> 00:38:45,640 the listeners out there who may have may 862 00:38:49,380 --> 00:38:47,440 have been following along the last thing 863 00:38:51,150 --> 00:38:49,390 they will remember about the face on 864 00:38:52,620 --> 00:38:51,160 Mars I'm just thinking in their head now 865 00:38:54,060 --> 00:38:52,630 they're like hang on didn't didn't we 866 00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:54,070 take another photo and it was just a 867 00:38:58,859 --> 00:38:56,170 funny shaped Hill so I think we need to 868 00:39:01,980 --> 00:38:58,869 tell that story just say that we no no 869 00:39:06,810 --> 00:39:01,990 no that was it take down so it was yeah 870 00:39:09,180 --> 00:39:06,820 it was an intense of reaction from the 871 00:39:12,390 --> 00:39:09,190 kind of academic types running JPL and 872 00:39:15,990 --> 00:39:12,400 they're probably also following orders 873 00:39:19,380 --> 00:39:16,000 you know suppress this idea the the US 874 00:39:22,220 --> 00:39:19,390 government for a long time decided to 875 00:39:25,349 --> 00:39:22,230 you know hold off the inevitable 876 00:39:28,230 --> 00:39:25,359 basically they it was funny they're 877 00:39:28,740 --> 00:39:28,240 there their actions were the right hand 878 00:39:32,670 --> 00:39:28,750 and the left 879 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:32,680 and the right hand of the government was 880 00:39:38,250 --> 00:39:34,210 distributing all these photos to 881 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:38,260 everybody making them available they 882 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:40,330 clearly showed evidence for a dead 883 00:39:48,060 --> 00:39:42,330 civilization on Mars and the left hand 884 00:39:50,720 --> 00:39:48,070 the more programmatic big science Empire 885 00:39:54,270 --> 00:39:50,730 building a sort of part of science was 886 00:39:55,710 --> 00:39:54,280 adamant that this was nothing that is a 887 00:39:58,620 --> 00:39:55,720 funny-shaped hill there's nothing 888 00:40:00,990 --> 00:39:58,630 unusual about it and in fact when 889 00:40:04,470 --> 00:40:01,000 DiPietro and Mullen are found a second 890 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:04,480 image of the face of Cydonia from the 891 00:40:08,670 --> 00:40:06,850 Viking which you know clearly shows a 892 00:40:10,950 --> 00:40:08,680 face and then there's a pyramid right 893 00:40:13,170 --> 00:40:10,960 next to it and you can actually then go 894 00:40:16,550 --> 00:40:13,180 back to the original discovery frame and 895 00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:16,560 find the same pyramid in fact so they 896 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:19,090 the initial reaction from Jet Propulsion 897 00:40:24,740 --> 00:40:23,290 lab was DiPietro timon are liars they 898 00:40:28,980 --> 00:40:24,750 have made this up 899 00:40:31,410 --> 00:40:28,990 and even though within their own photo 900 00:40:36,180 --> 00:40:31,420 nasa photo catalogues the image was in 901 00:40:38,550 --> 00:40:36,190 the nasa photo catalogs and I even found 902 00:40:42,750 --> 00:40:38,560 it in a photo mosaic of you know 903 00:40:44,940 --> 00:40:42,760 published in 1979 when DiPietro Molenaar 904 00:40:47,810 --> 00:40:44,950 had already you know published before 905 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:47,820 Pete Ramone are actually went to press 906 00:40:56,490 --> 00:40:52,450 they found a we found a scientific 907 00:40:58,050 --> 00:40:56,500 article with 78 13 and the face of the 908 00:41:00,920 --> 00:40:58,060 pyramid right in the middle of a photo 909 00:41:04,650 --> 00:41:00,930 mosaic you you have to look for it but 910 00:41:06,390 --> 00:41:04,660 so so we had is almost Alice in 911 00:41:09,090 --> 00:41:06,400 Wonderland and mad tea-party 912 00:41:14,790 --> 00:41:09,100 uh there is no it there is no additional 913 00:41:17,550 --> 00:41:14,800 picture um um you know this is nonsense 914 00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:17,560 let us move let us move on to the 915 00:41:21,690 --> 00:41:19,570 science and well that's that's such a 916 00:41:23,690 --> 00:41:21,700 very good way of putting it because they 917 00:41:26,070 --> 00:41:23,700 brought out some big guns I mean I 918 00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:26,080 obviously have a higher opinion of Carl 919 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:27,610 Sagan than I do 920 00:41:32,010 --> 00:41:30,610 he appears in the book now and then and 921 00:41:35,340 --> 00:41:32,020 there's a very interesting anecdote 922 00:41:38,700 --> 00:41:35,350 because my own sort of research has been 923 00:41:41,930 --> 00:41:38,710 on Paleolithic star lore and that kind 924 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:41,940 of thing so Carl Sagan is 925 00:41:46,599 --> 00:41:44,130 person who tends to flip-flop what was a 926 00:41:50,150 --> 00:41:46,609 person who tends to flip-flop based on 927 00:41:51,589 --> 00:41:50,160 presumably what certain pay masses would 928 00:41:54,380 --> 00:41:51,599 like him to say you have a very 929 00:41:57,380 --> 00:41:54,390 interesting Anika well we're all subject 930 00:41:58,670 --> 00:41:57,390 as a cooler to some extent Gordon does 931 00:42:00,170 --> 00:41:58,680 any sane I would say you'll bring me 932 00:42:02,059 --> 00:42:00,180 there I've heard I've heard the 933 00:42:05,660 --> 00:42:02,069 admonition Brandenburg shut your mouth 934 00:42:09,020 --> 00:42:05,670 and earlier gold yes more than once in 935 00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:09,030 my career well this is going to be a I 936 00:42:14,270 --> 00:42:11,130 mean there's there's a story you 937 00:42:17,720 --> 00:42:14,280 described in death on Mars where um Karl 938 00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:17,730 rings you up and he's because you know 939 00:42:21,230 --> 00:42:19,650 you have these images that he thinks 940 00:42:23,690 --> 00:42:21,240 would be interesting I think there were 941 00:42:24,829 --> 00:42:23,700 the Utopia images and you said you send 942 00:42:27,319 --> 00:42:24,839 them out you don't do the right thing of 943 00:42:29,809 --> 00:42:27,329 course I will send these off and he 944 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:29,819 never got them and you both know no he 945 00:42:34,250 --> 00:42:31,530 never did and you both know what that 946 00:42:38,529 --> 00:42:34,260 means you're both aware well we we both 947 00:42:42,170 --> 00:42:38,539 I had it was it was a it was almost a 948 00:42:44,539 --> 00:42:42,180 comical episode when I had arrived at a 949 00:42:48,260 --> 00:42:44,549 new I taken a new position in Washington 950 00:42:51,500 --> 00:42:48,270 DC at a defense contractor aerospace 951 00:42:53,319 --> 00:42:51,510 contractor and I had just started there 952 00:42:58,130 --> 00:42:53,329 we were frantically running around 953 00:42:59,720 --> 00:42:58,140 selling research projects on the new SDI 954 00:43:02,720 --> 00:42:59,730 or Strategic Defense Initiative 955 00:43:07,010 --> 00:43:02,730 space-based defense which I believed in 956 00:43:11,210 --> 00:43:07,020 very fervently and um uh basically I 957 00:43:14,089 --> 00:43:11,220 keep getting calls Carl Sagan's has 958 00:43:16,309 --> 00:43:14,099 called I had a particularly lovely 959 00:43:19,309 --> 00:43:16,319 office manager I was always pleased when 960 00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:19,319 she would walk up to me and say dr. 961 00:43:24,319 --> 00:43:21,410 Brennan Berg Carl Sagan has called you 962 00:43:25,819 --> 00:43:24,329 and so I would always call his office 963 00:43:28,339 --> 00:43:25,829 back we would play what was called 964 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:28,349 telephone tag in those days since no one 965 00:43:35,180 --> 00:43:32,010 had cell phones or even beepers and this 966 00:43:37,970 --> 00:43:35,190 went on for two weeks until finally I 967 00:43:41,299 --> 00:43:37,980 was in a conference with my boss we were 968 00:43:44,210 --> 00:43:41,309 you know making a research proposal to 969 00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:44,220 the Pentagon and we were planning that 970 00:43:50,450 --> 00:43:46,770 in the office the lovely office manager 971 00:43:52,940 --> 00:43:50,460 Darlene walked into our his office and 972 00:43:55,220 --> 00:43:52,950 says John has a phone call and the boss 973 00:43:57,020 --> 00:43:55,230 is extremely irritated inside 974 00:44:01,700 --> 00:43:57,030 who is it from and she says it's from 975 00:44:04,130 --> 00:44:01,710 Carl Sagan and he he's awestruck at this 976 00:44:06,650 --> 00:44:04,140 because Carl Sagan was a you know major 977 00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:06,660 media figure at the time and here he is 978 00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:10,050 calling for you know to talk to is this 979 00:44:15,530 --> 00:44:13,050 new employee who had some had some 980 00:44:20,780 --> 00:44:15,540 difficulties involving Mars in his last 981 00:44:26,470 --> 00:44:20,790 job yeah yeah and then she says and he's 982 00:44:29,030 --> 00:44:26,480 being snippy says my boss just laughs 983 00:44:31,430 --> 00:44:29,040 well John better talk to him and so I go 984 00:44:34,069 --> 00:44:31,440 and talk to him and I had sent him the 985 00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:34,079 new pictures from utopia which show two 986 00:44:39,770 --> 00:44:36,690 new faces one that looks just like the 987 00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:39,780 face inside onea these are all those 988 00:44:46,310 --> 00:44:42,290 pictures the discovery pictures and 989 00:44:48,319 --> 00:44:46,320 those the new confirmatory pictures from 990 00:44:51,890 --> 00:44:48,329 the later space probes are now are shown 991 00:44:54,319 --> 00:44:51,900 in the book death on Mars and so I go to 992 00:44:56,150 --> 00:44:54,329 the office and Harry I'm speaking with 993 00:44:57,560 --> 00:44:56,160 him privately and I said well what did 994 00:45:01,040 --> 00:44:57,570 you think of the new pictures and he 995 00:45:04,700 --> 00:45:01,050 says I never got them and we most do 996 00:45:07,099 --> 00:45:04,710 this long moment of silence recognizing 997 00:45:09,530 --> 00:45:07,109 that the US government is now involved 998 00:45:14,599 --> 00:45:09,540 in this and they want us to know they're 999 00:45:16,250 --> 00:45:14,609 involved this is an honestly dr. 1000 00:45:19,240 --> 00:45:16,260 Brandenburg this is a classic sceptical 1001 00:45:22,819 --> 00:45:19,250 story because you have media-friendly 1002 00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:22,829 science mouthpieces that stick to an 1003 00:45:30,710 --> 00:45:26,490 agenda now back to my conversation with 1004 00:45:33,770 --> 00:45:30,720 Gordon the point is that the folks who 1005 00:45:37,130 --> 00:45:33,780 are in charge of the Machine believe 1006 00:45:41,390 --> 00:45:37,140 it's true and at the same time they are 1007 00:45:43,609 --> 00:45:41,400 engaged in a rigorous disinformation 1008 00:45:46,099 --> 00:45:43,619 campaign to say exactly the opposite 1009 00:45:48,950 --> 00:45:46,109 right so they believe it and at the same 1010 00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:48,960 time they're they're just as strongly as 1011 00:45:53,030 --> 00:45:51,210 possible doing everything they can to 1012 00:45:55,250 --> 00:45:53,040 discredit anyone who says that that's 1013 00:45:57,050 --> 00:45:55,260 what they believe in to miss inform the 1014 00:46:00,859 --> 00:45:57,060 public and all that so it is this kind 1015 00:46:03,380 --> 00:46:00,869 of crazy world absolutely absolutely 1016 00:46:05,450 --> 00:46:03,390 one of the things which maybe this can 1017 00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:05,460 be edited to immediately afterwards but 1018 00:46:08,870 --> 00:46:07,290 the things I found interesting dr. 1019 00:46:10,910 --> 00:46:08,880 Brandenburg is and is familiar with 1020 00:46:12,980 --> 00:46:10,920 Jacques Vallee as I am but few people 1021 00:46:14,720 --> 00:46:12,990 are because you know I I would have a 1022 00:46:20,420 --> 00:46:14,730 little statue of Herman candles if I 1023 00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:20,430 could his experience as a alongside the 1024 00:46:25,340 --> 00:46:22,650 very famous Blue Book report in in the 1025 00:46:28,730 --> 00:46:25,350 60s and 70s into JM J Allen Hynek sort 1026 00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:28,740 of review of the UFO phenomena his 1027 00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:30,570 experience with that in his first time 1028 00:46:34,850 --> 00:46:32,490 going to Washington after he'd sort of 1029 00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:34,860 had passport to Magana published in jail 1030 00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:37,530 and hi next Oh everyone in the CIA and 1031 00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:40,650 whatever who he was speaking to had his 1032 00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:43,290 book in their briefcase now for 1033 00:46:46,460 --> 00:46:45,090 immediately that was very dismaying for 1034 00:46:47,830 --> 00:46:46,470 him because it realized he suddenly 1035 00:46:49,940 --> 00:46:47,840 realized he knew more than they did 1036 00:46:51,890 --> 00:46:49,950 they're carrying his book around and 1037 00:46:53,300 --> 00:46:51,900 they're asking him questions the second 1038 00:46:55,490 --> 00:46:53,310 thing that he quickly realized over the 1039 00:46:58,130 --> 00:46:55,500 next sort of several years is that one 1040 00:47:00,710 --> 00:46:58,140 of the ways the the sort of insidious 1041 00:47:03,260 --> 00:47:00,720 component of the disinfo that comes with 1042 00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:03,270 this policy is they outsource the 1043 00:47:09,500 --> 00:47:06,210 research and I think when dr. 1044 00:47:12,050 --> 00:47:09,510 Brandenburg says quote unquote they want 1045 00:47:14,050 --> 00:47:12,060 this information out if they did I would 1046 00:47:16,690 --> 00:47:14,060 suggest they go to the New York Times 1047 00:47:19,820 --> 00:47:16,700 what they've done is given it to 1048 00:47:22,550 --> 00:47:19,830 brilliant rigorous oddball groups 1049 00:47:23,780 --> 00:47:22,560 because I mean you've run a P&L you know 1050 00:47:26,390 --> 00:47:23,790 what it's like you don't want the dog 1051 00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:26,400 project on your books but you do need 1052 00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:28,290 the research anyway and that was dr. 1053 00:47:34,970 --> 00:47:32,610 valets conclusion to why why you know 1054 00:47:36,260 --> 00:47:34,980 why FBI agents would show up to a UFO 1055 00:47:38,570 --> 00:47:36,270 conference in the middle of nowhere 1056 00:47:40,580 --> 00:47:38,580 they're not they're in some kind of 1057 00:47:42,890 --> 00:47:40,590 mysterious way that maybe someone's 1058 00:47:45,380 --> 00:47:42,900 burst out with some secrets they're 1059 00:47:47,780 --> 00:47:45,390 actually there because we're in a area 1060 00:47:50,300 --> 00:47:47,790 where we have to outsource the research 1061 00:47:51,830 --> 00:47:50,310 because the disinfo component that comes 1062 00:47:53,180 --> 00:47:51,840 with the national security implications 1063 00:47:55,190 --> 00:47:53,190 makes it very difficult to otherwise 1064 00:47:57,890 --> 00:47:55,200 navigate and what's interesting about 1065 00:48:00,260 --> 00:47:57,900 that is if you listen carefully to this 1066 00:48:04,250 --> 00:48:00,270 interview at least what I heard was 1067 00:48:07,250 --> 00:48:04,260 actually a realization by Brandenburg 1068 00:48:09,170 --> 00:48:07,260 that that was going on I don't think he 1069 00:48:11,750 --> 00:48:09,180 had really quite thought of it in that 1070 00:48:13,610 --> 00:48:11,760 way and then you kept repeating that 1071 00:48:16,370 --> 00:48:13,620 outsourcing the research a couple times 1072 00:48:18,650 --> 00:48:16,380 and then he said yeah they outsourced 1073 00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:18,660 the research to me and then when it was 1074 00:48:22,579 --> 00:48:21,330 time in that that is the story goes you 1075 00:48:24,529 --> 00:48:22,589 know then it 1076 00:48:26,989 --> 00:48:24,539 comes time to publish it he doesn't even 1077 00:48:29,839 --> 00:48:26,999 know to publish it and they give him the 1078 00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:29,849 signal the signal is nothing information 1079 00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:31,890 and he still doesn't catch on so then 1080 00:48:36,469 --> 00:48:33,450 they nudge him a little bit further and 1081 00:48:38,900 --> 00:48:36,479 they go you know you really ought to 1082 00:48:41,359 --> 00:48:38,910 publish that and he still isn't quite 1083 00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:41,369 kind of caught on to it which relates 1084 00:48:46,339 --> 00:48:42,930 back to this other thing and again not 1085 00:48:49,009 --> 00:48:46,349 to disparage dr. Brandenburg but is part 1086 00:48:50,809 --> 00:48:49,019 of that script of outsourcing the 1087 00:48:53,989 --> 00:48:50,819 research a lot of times what they'll do 1088 00:48:56,450 --> 00:48:53,999 is and you know this better than I do so 1089 00:48:59,749 --> 00:48:56,460 jump in here but they will target people 1090 00:49:03,380 --> 00:48:59,759 that are somewhat imperfect in certain 1091 00:49:06,170 --> 00:49:03,390 ways that would make them a vehicle to 1092 00:49:09,190 --> 00:49:06,180 tell the story and also a vehicle that 1093 00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:09,200 tells the story in a way that they can 1094 00:49:14,299 --> 00:49:12,210 undermine or discredit or distance 1095 00:49:15,859 --> 00:49:14,309 themselves from I I didn't get to talk 1096 00:49:19,039 --> 00:49:15,869 about this with dr. Brandenburg but I 1097 00:49:20,930 --> 00:49:19,049 think it's his faith I think the fact 1098 00:49:23,150 --> 00:49:20,940 that he is an up-and-down Christian and 1099 00:49:24,499 --> 00:49:23,160 makes no bones about it and I mention 1100 00:49:27,469 --> 00:49:24,509 this news presentation and I've 1101 00:49:29,420 --> 00:49:27,479 completely respect that but that's the 1102 00:49:34,430 --> 00:49:29,430 thing that the materialists were kind of 1103 00:49:36,529 --> 00:49:34,440 stab at and go oh look charlie church it 1104 00:49:39,019 --> 00:49:36,539 doesn't matter that he is a he is a is a 1105 00:49:41,420 --> 00:49:39,029 proper scientist he got all the degrees 1106 00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:41,430 and experience you want he's a Christian 1107 00:49:47,029 --> 00:49:44,729 and I think that's why he gets to be 1108 00:49:48,799 --> 00:49:47,039 kind of the Nexus of some of the the 1109 00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:48,809 Mars atmospheric research because he's 1110 00:49:52,180 --> 00:49:51,450 got a really easy knife hole in his back 1111 00:49:55,219 --> 00:49:52,190 already 1112 00:49:56,690 --> 00:49:55,229 so the third point that I kind of 1113 00:49:59,599 --> 00:49:56,700 outlined that I thought we might kind of 1114 00:50:00,829 --> 00:49:59,609 kick around is this idea I jotted down 1115 00:50:02,809 --> 00:50:00,839 the idea you know the first rule of 1116 00:50:04,940 --> 00:50:02,819 Fight Club first rule of Fight Club is 1117 00:50:07,599 --> 00:50:04,950 you don't talk about Fight Club and in 1118 00:50:09,950 --> 00:50:07,609 Brandenburg's case what's just 1119 00:50:11,630 --> 00:50:09,960 fascinating about this interview and if 1120 00:50:13,309 --> 00:50:11,640 you're not careful it doesn't even seem 1121 00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:13,319 like it's the focus of the interview but 1122 00:50:19,489 --> 00:50:15,930 for me it was the one of the really big 1123 00:50:22,069 --> 00:50:19,499 payoffs are these stories about how the 1124 00:50:23,539 --> 00:50:22,079 game is really played and we were just 1125 00:50:25,130 --> 00:50:23,549 alluding to that just a minute ago when 1126 00:50:27,529 --> 00:50:25,140 we're saying you know outsourcing the 1127 00:50:31,450 --> 00:50:27,539 research I mean that's how the game is 1128 00:50:34,759 --> 00:50:31,460 played the junior college professor who 1129 00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:34,769 you tell that story they will have heard 1130 00:50:38,590 --> 00:50:36,290 this story probably because will 1131 00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:38,600 leave it after the interview but let's 1132 00:50:43,810 --> 00:50:41,210 emphasize that it's just it's just a jaw 1133 00:50:45,610 --> 00:50:43,820 drop I kind of wonder if issue me did I 1134 00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:45,620 wonder if he thought if dr. Brandenburg 1135 00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:46,970 himself thought he was going crazy 1136 00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:49,370 where wouldn't you know halfway through 1137 00:50:52,390 --> 00:50:50,810 this research because I certainly do I 1138 00:50:54,250 --> 00:50:52,400 think wondering if I'm going crazy keeps 1139 00:50:55,270 --> 00:50:54,260 me saying I'm sure it's sort of very 1140 00:50:58,000 --> 00:50:55,280 similar for you Alex 1141 00:50:59,920 --> 00:50:58,010 and when he was in Washington one of the 1142 00:51:01,260 --> 00:50:59,930 one of his close friends at the time he 1143 00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:01,270 was interested in the Mars research 1144 00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:04,010 pretended to be a community college 1145 00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:06,490 astronomy professor 1146 00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:09,410 here's that actual story from Gordon's 1147 00:51:15,130 --> 00:51:12,650 interview with dr. John Brandenburg so 1148 00:51:17,890 --> 00:51:15,140 we were both waiting for a tap on the 1149 00:51:20,140 --> 00:51:17,900 shoulder but as since Vince had already 1150 00:51:23,260 --> 00:51:20,150 encountered this and he had received no 1151 00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:23,270 tap on the shoulder it was basically the 1152 00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:25,610 government wanted us to know that they 1153 00:51:30,010 --> 00:51:27,290 were aware of our research 1154 00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:30,020 well absolutely interest it was it tells 1155 00:51:38,140 --> 00:51:33,650 us to well tell the story of Larry from 1156 00:51:43,950 --> 00:51:38,150 Community College Oh Oh fabulous yes we 1157 00:51:46,720 --> 00:51:43,960 had we uh many people were of kind of 1158 00:51:50,020 --> 00:51:46,730 interested in our work many scientists 1159 00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:50,030 and would us occasionally and even 1160 00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:51,770 accompany us to scientific conferences 1161 00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:54,290 and eventually a group of scientists 1162 00:51:59,680 --> 00:51:56,330 form the Society for planetary SETI 1163 00:52:01,750 --> 00:51:59,690 research um and so then one of these 1164 00:52:03,820 --> 00:52:01,760 scientists who is very interested with a 1165 00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:03,830 local astronomy professor in the 1166 00:52:09,790 --> 00:52:06,290 community college uh well just call 1167 00:52:11,590 --> 00:52:09,800 Larry he's good guy uh I you know I've 1168 00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:11,600 gotten to know him a few beers with him 1169 00:52:18,510 --> 00:52:13,610 he's a good good fellow more than a few 1170 00:52:20,770 --> 00:52:18,520 is over the years and he was constantly 1171 00:52:22,420 --> 00:52:20,780 chumming around with us and would go to 1172 00:52:24,190 --> 00:52:22,430 conferences with us and we were 1173 00:52:26,470 --> 00:52:24,200 constantly sharing everything we found 1174 00:52:28,390 --> 00:52:26,480 we considered that there were no secrets 1175 00:52:30,460 --> 00:52:28,400 at this point we were just sharing what 1176 00:52:32,170 --> 00:52:30,470 we found and we were documenting it by 1177 00:52:36,970 --> 00:52:32,180 going to conferences and presenting it 1178 00:52:41,050 --> 00:52:36,980 and um finally we're down town in 1179 00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:41,060 Washington DC at a Mars conference about 1180 00:52:46,780 --> 00:52:43,490 going to Mars Carl Sagan later showed up 1181 00:52:49,260 --> 00:52:46,790 and we both Vista Pedro and I both met 1182 00:52:51,930 --> 00:52:49,270 uh shook hands with him 1183 00:52:55,620 --> 00:52:51,940 and uh you know we had a brief but very 1184 00:52:58,650 --> 00:52:55,630 but cordial meeting there but as we're 1185 00:53:02,160 --> 00:52:58,660 standing there in the hallway outside in 1186 00:53:06,420 --> 00:53:02,170 between talks uh an airforce Colonel 1187 00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:06,430 walks up who apparently insta Pedro had 1188 00:53:15,450 --> 00:53:11,370 known in a you know stencil Oh to Vince 1189 00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:15,460 Vince introduces me and then before 1190 00:53:21,780 --> 00:53:19,330 Vince can introduce Larry um the Carl 1191 00:53:23,310 --> 00:53:21,790 basically says Larry good to see you 1192 00:53:29,340 --> 00:53:23,320 here how are things at Defense 1193 00:53:31,620 --> 00:53:29,350 Intelligence Agency and Larry was a real 1194 00:53:33,570 --> 00:53:31,630 pro he didn't even bat an eyelash he 1195 00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:33,580 says they're they're just going great 1196 00:53:39,030 --> 00:53:34,330 colonel 1197 00:53:40,950 --> 00:53:39,040 thank you for asking and what I realized 1198 00:53:42,630 --> 00:53:40,960 then is if there was going to be a tap 1199 00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:42,640 on the shoulder we would have already 1200 00:53:51,240 --> 00:53:46,930 felt it instead they were basically by 1201 00:53:55,050 --> 00:53:51,250 not interfering waving us ahead and the 1202 00:53:56,790 --> 00:53:55,060 NASA data center at Goddard which is in 1203 00:54:01,170 --> 00:53:56,800 Washington DC Goddard Space Flight 1204 00:54:06,900 --> 00:54:01,180 Center was very generous in providing us 1205 00:54:10,650 --> 00:54:06,910 with all sorts of data so we were we 1206 00:54:12,450 --> 00:54:10,660 were basically being encouraged public 1207 00:54:14,580 --> 00:54:12,460 so there was a great great game was 1208 00:54:16,740 --> 00:54:14,590 going on as your very carefully used to 1209 00:54:18,450 --> 00:54:16,750 call it the great game absolutely I 1210 00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:18,460 don't know if your I don't know if 1211 00:54:23,070 --> 00:54:20,650 you've read dr. fellows recently 1212 00:54:25,740 --> 00:54:23,080 published his journals in three volumes 1213 00:54:28,410 --> 00:54:25,750 forbidden science and a similar thing 1214 00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:28,420 happened in this world 60s and 70s with 1215 00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:31,930 ufology which is essentially outsourcing 1216 00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:36,130 research whoever is interested in the 1217 00:54:41,070 --> 00:54:38,170 sort of independent research going on 1218 00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:41,080 they don't go to too much trouble to 1219 00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:43,570 conceal that interest and to the point 1220 00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:44,890 where when octave la would go to 1221 00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:46,330 Washington they would have his books 1222 00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:48,610 like challenge to science in a briefcase 1223 00:54:52,590 --> 00:54:50,290 which he found a bit dismaying cuz it 1224 00:54:54,260 --> 00:54:52,600 meant that he knew more than they did so 1225 00:54:57,510 --> 00:54:54,270 so much for their government conspiracy 1226 00:55:03,540 --> 00:54:57,520 but the the model was so III by the way 1227 00:55:05,910 --> 00:55:03,550 I I when I I did not believe in you UFOs 1228 00:55:09,660 --> 00:55:05,920 at the time when I began my Mars 1229 00:55:13,140 --> 00:55:09,670 research I had basically adopted the 1230 00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:13,150 view that if I'm working for the 1231 00:55:17,250 --> 00:55:14,410 government and the government says 1232 00:55:19,560 --> 00:55:17,260 there's no UFOs therefore since I want 1233 00:55:23,450 --> 00:55:19,570 to be accepted as a serious scientist I 1234 00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:23,460 should not you know I should just accept 1235 00:55:28,740 --> 00:55:26,770 the conventional wisdom in graduate 1236 00:55:32,550 --> 00:55:28,750 school you know we were actually told at 1237 00:55:35,340 --> 00:55:32,560 one point if anyone asks you if work 1238 00:55:36,990 --> 00:55:35,350 drive like in the movie in the show Star 1239 00:55:38,460 --> 00:55:37,000 Trek is possible you're to say 1240 00:55:40,410 --> 00:55:38,470 absolutely not nothing bill 1241 00:55:43,500 --> 00:55:40,420 faster-than-light et cetera et cetera 1242 00:55:46,740 --> 00:55:43,510 we were actually recruited in graduate 1243 00:55:51,030 --> 00:55:46,750 school to defend mainstream scientific 1244 00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:51,040 views and were expected to portray that 1245 00:55:59,370 --> 00:55:55,810 to the public if anyone asked us and so 1246 00:56:01,140 --> 00:55:59,380 I actually basically said well the 1247 00:56:03,390 --> 00:56:01,150 government investigate UFOs and there 1248 00:56:06,030 --> 00:56:03,400 was nothing to it despite having seen 1249 00:56:07,650 --> 00:56:06,040 some UFOs when I was a kid he got a 1250 00:56:13,110 --> 00:56:07,660 report in the paper everyone everyone 1251 00:56:17,490 --> 00:56:13,120 saw it over my town and but but there 1252 00:56:19,860 --> 00:56:17,500 was a great deal of scientific orthodoxy 1253 00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:19,870 and discipline imposed on people who 1254 00:56:27,150 --> 00:56:24,210 were part of the academia and part of 1255 00:56:29,750 --> 00:56:27,160 government science that we weren't 1256 00:56:33,750 --> 00:56:29,760 supposed to believe in certain things um 1257 00:56:36,420 --> 00:56:33,760 and then uh well in fact you know even 1258 00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:36,430 talking about big things like Bigfoot up 1259 00:56:40,530 --> 00:56:37,810 in the woods this could get you a 1260 00:56:42,480 --> 00:56:40,540 reputation for not being a serious 1261 00:56:44,190 --> 00:56:42,490 scientist and then of course you're 1262 00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:44,200 going to get passed over at the next job 1263 00:56:53,490 --> 00:56:49,810 interview and so um I had actually by 1264 00:56:58,260 --> 00:56:53,500 the time I was investigating Mars I did 1265 00:57:03,000 --> 00:56:58,270 not believe there was anything to the 1266 00:57:07,470 --> 00:57:03,010 UFO phenomena and it was partly because 1267 00:57:10,500 --> 00:57:07,480 I I thought I want to be taken seriously 1268 00:57:15,420 --> 00:57:10,510 as a scientist and you know that is a 1269 00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:15,430 forbidden subject and so armed what 1270 00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:16,850 happened then 1271 00:57:23,270 --> 00:57:21,090 later was that the people in the UFO 1272 00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:23,280 field recognized that finding a dead 1273 00:57:27,530 --> 00:57:25,530 civilization on Mars very much confirmed 1274 00:57:30,890 --> 00:57:27,540 the you know what's called the et 1275 00:57:35,330 --> 00:57:30,900 hypothesis that the core phenomenon of 1276 00:57:38,060 --> 00:57:35,340 UFOs is extraterrestrial and so I would 1277 00:57:41,030 --> 00:57:38,070 go to UFO conferences finally and give 1278 00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:41,040 papers on Mars which everyone loved and 1279 00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:43,410 I would look around since I was also 1280 00:57:47,990 --> 00:57:46,010 working closely with Pentagon and 1281 00:57:50,540 --> 00:57:48,000 positions agency and all these other 1282 00:57:52,700 --> 00:57:50,550 agencies on the Star Wars thing it would 1283 00:57:54,470 --> 00:57:52,710 show up in meetings and I would look 1284 00:57:56,090 --> 00:57:54,480 around these conferences and realize 1285 00:57:58,100 --> 00:57:56,100 that half of the people at this 1286 00:58:00,740 --> 00:57:58,110 conference looked lecture from various 1287 00:58:02,540 --> 00:58:00,750 intelligence agencies in fact there's 1288 00:58:04,750 --> 00:58:02,550 such that are in fact subsidizing the 1289 00:58:07,850 --> 00:58:04,760 conference by all of the buying tickets 1290 00:58:09,830 --> 00:58:07,860 well yeah that's that's essentially that 1291 00:58:11,540 --> 00:58:09,840 was dr. villas hypothesis as well which 1292 00:58:12,980 --> 00:58:11,550 is what you have here is an outsource of 1293 00:58:16,460 --> 00:58:12,990 research and I think that's what 1294 00:58:17,810 --> 00:58:16,470 happened with it areas yeah I think 1295 00:58:18,500 --> 00:58:17,820 that's what happened with you I think 1296 00:58:20,150 --> 00:58:18,510 that's what happened with the 1297 00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:20,160 independent Mars researchers because 1298 00:58:26,450 --> 00:58:21,930 this stuff is strategically important 1299 00:58:28,130 --> 00:58:26,460 and it's too it's too hot to have 1300 00:58:31,670 --> 00:58:28,140 government money attached to it so this 1301 00:58:35,050 --> 00:58:31,680 is how you do it so max Gordon and I 1302 00:58:37,900 --> 00:58:35,060 talked a little bit about that data 1303 00:58:41,210 --> 00:58:37,910 versus the interpretation of that data 1304 00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:41,220 that data being that the government 1305 00:58:46,850 --> 00:58:44,850 really is doing this stuff and the 1306 00:58:49,310 --> 00:58:46,860 interpretation that data being well 1307 00:58:51,350 --> 00:58:49,320 whatever you want it to be that's 1308 00:58:54,050 --> 00:58:51,360 absolutely the skeptical angle because 1309 00:58:56,320 --> 00:58:54,060 those are our data the interpretations 1310 00:58:58,550 --> 00:58:56,330 of the data are that there are vanished 1311 00:58:59,960 --> 00:58:58,560 presumably vanished cultures on other 1312 00:59:01,460 --> 00:58:59,970 planets in the solar system I think 1313 00:59:03,410 --> 00:59:01,470 that's a very good interpretation I go 1314 00:59:05,810 --> 00:59:03,420 about halfway there but the actual data 1315 00:59:09,470 --> 00:59:05,820 we are working with here is that we have 1316 00:59:12,770 --> 00:59:09,480 an extremely dissociative space research 1317 00:59:14,590 --> 00:59:12,780 policy in in in the West where we're 1318 00:59:17,390 --> 00:59:14,600 pretending it's one thing and actively 1319 00:59:20,540 --> 00:59:17,400 actively believing and spending untold 1320 00:59:22,700 --> 00:59:20,550 you know billions pursuing this idea 1321 00:59:24,560 --> 00:59:22,710 that at least at some stage in the 1322 00:59:26,030 --> 00:59:24,570 universe in the solar system's recent 1323 00:59:26,810 --> 00:59:26,040 history it was a lot more interesting 1324 00:59:27,270 --> 00:59:26,820 than it is today 1325 00:59:31,020 --> 00:59:27,280 I 1326 00:59:34,740 --> 00:59:31,030 add as we talk about that Mars Death 1327 00:59:39,210 --> 00:59:34,750 Star hypothesis kind of thing that is 1328 00:59:42,360 --> 00:59:39,220 the core of Brandenburg's conclusion to 1329 00:59:44,190 --> 00:59:42,370 me in a way it does connect with some of 1330 00:59:47,670 --> 00:59:44,200 the stuff that I've looked at in terms 1331 00:59:52,590 --> 00:59:47,680 of near-death experience in spirituality 1332 00:59:55,950 --> 00:59:52,600 in general in that we cross the chasm to 1333 00:59:59,070 --> 00:59:55,960 where we can't really even grasp 1334 01:00:00,810 --> 00:59:59,080 conceptually what that means and I kind 1335 01:00:03,890 --> 01:00:00,820 of felt the same way here when we're 1336 01:00:06,570 --> 01:00:03,900 talking about 500 million years ago a 1337 01:00:10,080 --> 01:00:06,580 civilization being destroyed and it 1338 01:00:12,930 --> 01:00:10,090 totally throws out all our understanding 1339 01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:12,940 of who we are of our relationship to 1340 01:00:18,300 --> 01:00:15,610 other beings and it tells it it's like 1341 01:00:20,760 --> 01:00:18,310 you know I can't really I can't really 1342 01:00:24,180 --> 01:00:20,770 go there in any kind of way that that 1343 01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:24,190 makes sense there's just too much but at 1344 01:00:31,110 --> 01:00:27,010 the same time the adventure of leading 1345 01:00:33,090 --> 01:00:31,120 up to the chasm is certainly an awesome 1346 01:00:35,340 --> 01:00:33,100 one and that's what I think he brought 1347 01:00:37,080 --> 01:00:35,350 us with this interview whether people 1348 01:00:41,430 --> 01:00:37,090 want to jump to that other side and say 1349 01:00:45,030 --> 01:00:41,440 yep somebody wiped out Mars 250 or 500 1350 01:00:48,330 --> 01:00:45,040 million years ago or not is is also very 1351 01:00:50,280 --> 01:00:48,340 interesting to speculate about okay in 1352 01:00:52,620 --> 01:00:50,290 this final segment from Gordon's 1353 01:00:55,530 --> 01:00:52,630 interview he talks to dr. John 1354 01:00:58,710 --> 01:00:55,540 Brandenburg about his theory and about 1355 01:01:01,920 --> 01:00:58,720 his very solid data it would seem that 1356 01:01:06,420 --> 01:01:01,930 supports this idea that Mars was 1357 01:01:09,500 --> 01:01:06,430 destroyed by a nuclear blast 1358 01:01:14,760 --> 01:01:09,510 dr. Brandenburg what is xenon 1 to 9 1359 01:01:17,670 --> 01:01:14,770 xenon 129 is one of the five or so 1360 01:01:21,390 --> 01:01:17,680 stable isotopes of xenon in other words 1361 01:01:23,730 --> 01:01:21,400 it lasts forever and one of the 1362 01:01:29,690 --> 01:01:23,740 interesting things about nuclear fission 1363 01:01:34,430 --> 01:01:29,700 is it creates um it creates principally 1364 01:01:38,250 --> 01:01:34,440 two isotopes like strontium 90 and also 1365 01:01:40,470 --> 01:01:38,260 iodine 137 these are two very nasty 1366 01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:40,480 isotopes because one gets in your bones 1367 01:01:45,210 --> 01:01:43,210 the other one gets in your thyroid after 1368 01:01:49,620 --> 01:01:45,220 a nuclear explosion and they they cause 1369 01:01:53,940 --> 01:01:49,630 cancer later and so but a whole spectrum 1370 01:01:55,920 --> 01:01:53,950 of isotopes are produced in a nuclear 1371 01:02:02,069 --> 01:01:55,930 explosion that involves a lot of nuclear 1372 01:02:07,230 --> 01:02:02,079 fission and arm however by looking at 1373 01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:07,240 the distribution of xenon isotopes that 1374 01:02:13,170 --> 01:02:11,290 are produced in the reactions you can 1375 01:02:16,230 --> 01:02:13,180 actually tell a great deal about the 1376 01:02:21,380 --> 01:02:16,240 physics the detailed physics of the 1377 01:02:26,430 --> 01:02:21,390 nuclear reactions and as it turns out 1378 01:02:29,240 --> 01:02:26,440 fast neutrons associated with nuclear 1379 01:02:33,020 --> 01:02:29,250 explosions or plutonium production 1380 01:02:40,260 --> 01:02:33,030 produce a great deal of xenon 129 1381 01:02:44,730 --> 01:02:40,270 and this is a this is sort of a open 1382 01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:44,740 secret let's say it is not a classified 1383 01:02:50,099 --> 01:02:47,410 thing per se but the government is 1384 01:02:52,170 --> 01:02:50,109 bashful about confirming it however it's 1385 01:02:53,700 --> 01:02:52,180 very easy to see in the atmosphere of 1386 01:02:56,819 --> 01:02:53,710 the earth if you take atmospheric 1387 01:02:59,339 --> 01:02:56,829 measurements of the xenon isotopes in 1388 01:03:01,920 --> 01:02:59,349 the Earth's atmosphere they look very 1389 01:03:07,490 --> 01:03:01,930 much like the same that you get from the 1390 01:03:11,160 --> 01:03:07,500 solar wind from Jupiter uh from 1391 01:03:14,700 --> 01:03:11,170 meteorites all have the same kind of 1392 01:03:17,520 --> 01:03:14,710 basic distribution one is a peak at 129 1393 01:03:19,710 --> 01:03:17,530 the as a peak at 132 these are the 1394 01:03:22,410 --> 01:03:19,720 atomic numbers of the isotopes 1395 01:03:24,030 --> 01:03:22,420 they're both stable that's what 1396 01:03:28,470 --> 01:03:24,040 everything in the solar system looks 1397 01:03:30,330 --> 01:03:28,480 like however if you look at the chain 1398 01:03:33,510 --> 01:03:30,340 there's been a change in the Earth's 1399 01:03:37,140 --> 01:03:33,520 atmosphere since 1945 and almost all of 1400 01:03:39,870 --> 01:03:37,150 that change in being on 1/29 and this is 1401 01:03:42,570 --> 01:03:39,880 due to open air nuclear testing and uh 1402 01:03:45,390 --> 01:03:42,580 the production of plutonium which has to 1403 01:03:47,550 --> 01:03:45,400 be done with fast neutrons a new regular 1404 01:03:50,160 --> 01:03:47,560 nuclear reactor producing power uses 1405 01:03:56,040 --> 01:03:50,170 slow neutrons because that's the way to 1406 01:03:59,070 --> 01:03:56,050 maximize the fission reactivity of the 1407 01:04:01,589 --> 01:03:59,080 uranium they use slow neutrons but if 1408 01:04:03,990 --> 01:04:01,599 you're making nuclear weapons or setting 1409 01:04:09,089 --> 01:04:04,000 them off you use fast neutrons because 1410 01:04:12,420 --> 01:04:09,099 it's an explosion or near so so what 1411 01:04:15,920 --> 01:04:12,430 happened is that they published the data 1412 01:04:18,030 --> 01:04:15,930 on the shortly after landing on Mars and 1413 01:04:20,580 --> 01:04:18,040 sampling the Mars atmosphere they 1414 01:04:22,589 --> 01:04:20,590 actually published this data on the 1415 01:04:27,570 --> 01:04:22,599 Earth's atmosphere showing the spike in 1416 01:04:31,320 --> 01:04:27,580 was Ino and so what happened is the US 1417 01:04:34,020 --> 01:04:31,330 government landed on Mars sampled the 1418 01:04:37,200 --> 01:04:34,030 Martian atmosphere where almost all the 1419 01:04:40,589 --> 01:04:37,210 xenon is 129 it's different than any 1420 01:04:43,099 --> 01:04:40,599 other planet or meteorite or anything 1421 01:04:46,980 --> 01:04:43,109 else that we've sampled they knew 1422 01:04:49,430 --> 01:04:46,990 instantly after making that atmosphere 1423 01:04:53,390 --> 01:04:49,440 example that there have been a vast 1424 01:04:56,070 --> 01:04:53,400 nuclear explosion on Mars a very violent 1425 01:05:00,980 --> 01:04:56,080 release of nuclear energy with fast 1426 01:05:04,500 --> 01:05:00,990 Neutron physics had occurred on Mars so 1427 01:05:07,950 --> 01:05:04,510 we have we have a xenon range that is 1428 01:05:12,270 --> 01:05:07,960 observable in the entire solar system we 1429 01:05:14,970 --> 01:05:12,280 have xenon 1 2 9 which is which is not 1430 01:05:17,460 --> 01:05:14,980 naturally occurring is exclusively a 1431 01:05:20,390 --> 01:05:17,470 weapon signature and we have a ballad 1432 01:05:26,490 --> 01:05:20,400 let's say let's say it's it's normally 1433 01:05:30,660 --> 01:05:26,500 equal to Z non 132 in its distribution 1434 01:05:33,290 --> 01:05:30,670 when you get a large excess of xenon 129 1435 01:05:37,310 --> 01:05:33,300 vs you can basically ratio xenon 1436 01:05:39,770 --> 01:05:37,320 1:29 - xenon 1:32 that's what tells you 1437 01:05:41,990 --> 01:05:39,780 it's a weapon signature gotcha and we 1438 01:05:44,510 --> 01:05:42,000 know that because we have atmosphere 1439 01:05:46,610 --> 01:05:44,520 examples from before we were using 1440 01:05:49,490 --> 01:05:46,620 nuclear weapons on earth where we have a 1441 01:05:51,380 --> 01:05:49,500 kind of normal ratio between these two 1442 01:05:55,130 --> 01:05:51,390 and then we have that we have a 1443 01:05:58,010 --> 01:05:55,140 subsequent one after 1945 and then on 1444 01:05:59,660 --> 01:05:58,020 since with the amount of kind of bombs 1445 01:06:02,180 --> 01:05:59,670 we've dropped and plutonium we've 1446 01:06:04,250 --> 01:06:02,190 recognized on this planet and we find 1447 01:06:05,720 --> 01:06:04,260 that exact same one of the exact same we 1448 01:06:09,370 --> 01:06:05,730 actually find a more alarming ratio if I 1449 01:06:13,250 --> 01:06:09,380 read you correctly but we find that same 1450 01:06:17,450 --> 01:06:13,260 produc a predominance of xenon 129 in 1451 01:06:19,700 --> 01:06:17,460 the change of the atmosphere so to be 1452 01:06:21,860 --> 01:06:19,710 clear let's just put that together with 1453 01:06:25,640 --> 01:06:21,870 the stuff we've been talking about over 1454 01:06:28,970 --> 01:06:25,650 the course of the last hour the sort of 1455 01:06:32,870 --> 01:06:28,980 western space program began in earnest 1456 01:06:36,440 --> 01:06:32,880 with the belief or strong supposition 1457 01:06:40,760 --> 01:06:36,450 that there were artificial structures on 1458 01:06:43,340 --> 01:06:40,770 Mars over the course but over the course 1459 01:06:46,760 --> 01:06:43,350 of that discovery you have things like 1460 01:06:48,860 --> 01:06:46,770 armed guards showing up at photo labs we 1461 01:06:50,450 --> 01:06:48,870 have move on and and over the course of 1462 01:06:52,520 --> 01:06:50,460 that statement Verner von braun 1463 01:06:54,800 --> 01:06:52,530 suggesting the archaeologist should be 1464 01:06:57,340 --> 01:06:54,810 sent to Mars and absolutely a mission we 1465 01:07:00,110 --> 01:06:57,350 also find out that Mars was earth-like 1466 01:07:01,520 --> 01:07:00,120 yeah and you and yourself had something 1467 01:07:03,710 --> 01:07:01,530 to do with it by the way that's why it's 1468 01:07:06,260 --> 01:07:03,720 red we'll get to that in a minute we 1469 01:07:09,170 --> 01:07:06,270 will and then we find out two big clues 1470 01:07:11,390 --> 01:07:09,180 that Mars was like Earth of the past is 1471 01:07:14,060 --> 01:07:11,400 not only the river channels but it's 1472 01:07:17,960 --> 01:07:14,070 very redness yeah and and then we find 1473 01:07:19,790 --> 01:07:17,970 out that it has a well what's left of 1474 01:07:23,350 --> 01:07:19,800 its atmosphere but it has an atmospheric 1475 01:07:26,930 --> 01:07:23,360 signature that is associated with 1476 01:07:28,790 --> 01:07:26,940 weapons it has a weapon signature in its 1477 01:07:31,910 --> 01:07:28,800 atmosphere yeah and that's what you 1478 01:07:35,570 --> 01:07:31,920 found that's right and sent by by 1479 01:07:40,340 --> 01:07:35,580 subsequently we have now found that the 1480 01:07:43,970 --> 01:07:40,350 other shoe on the distribution is 1481 01:07:45,530 --> 01:07:43,980 Krypton get another inert gas when it 1482 01:07:50,840 --> 01:07:45,540 has a specific 1483 01:07:54,440 --> 01:07:50,850 um distribution of isotopes favoring 1484 01:07:58,570 --> 01:07:54,450 light isotopes arm that is actually also 1485 01:08:01,160 --> 01:07:58,580 a signature of it is it's a secondary 1486 01:08:03,140 --> 01:08:01,170 yeah it's a companion dairy piece of 1487 01:08:04,940 --> 01:08:03,150 evidence it's like finding the bullet in 1488 01:08:07,850 --> 01:08:04,950 the wall and then oh yes here's the 1489 01:08:09,740 --> 01:08:07,860 shell casing from the gun that was you 1490 01:08:11,600 --> 01:08:09,750 know from the cartridge that was fired 1491 01:08:12,470 --> 01:08:11,610 you found the bullet that's the xenon 1492 01:08:14,630 --> 01:08:12,480 129 1493 01:08:17,750 --> 01:08:14,640 there should be a shell casing around 1494 01:08:21,020 --> 01:08:17,760 here that's the Krypton isotopes yes and 1495 01:08:23,570 --> 01:08:21,030 yes they verify see this is that's why 1496 01:08:25,130 --> 01:08:23,580 Iowa in the Navigator rig so I would 1497 01:08:26,630 --> 01:08:25,140 neither that's an excellent analogy 1498 01:08:30,260 --> 01:08:26,640 because what I know people listening and 1499 01:08:33,620 --> 01:08:30,270 thinking is how have you run down the 1500 01:08:34,970 --> 01:08:33,630 options there must be some even just for 1501 01:08:37,940 --> 01:08:34,980 doing you know proper scientific 1502 01:08:41,500 --> 01:08:37,950 diligence doctor Brandenburg are there 1503 01:08:44,780 --> 01:08:41,510 genuinely any other naturally-occurring 1504 01:08:48,320 --> 01:08:44,790 reasons for this ratio and the presence 1505 01:08:51,470 --> 01:08:48,330 of Krypton according to anyone you 1506 01:08:53,539 --> 01:08:51,480 spoken to or any one nuclear physicist 1507 01:08:56,230 --> 01:08:53,549 or anyone who has attempted to challenge 1508 01:09:00,200 --> 01:08:56,240 your data because you looked didn't you 1509 01:09:04,340 --> 01:09:00,210 yes I did you certainly when putting 1510 01:09:07,460 --> 01:09:04,350 forth such an extraordinary hypothesis 1511 01:09:09,920 --> 01:09:07,470 you want to make sure as a scientist 1512 01:09:13,520 --> 01:09:09,930 that your Ducks I care very deeply about 1513 01:09:15,500 --> 01:09:13,530 my reputation as a scientist and I will 1514 01:09:17,630 --> 01:09:15,510 also tell you that I'm a veteran of many 1515 01:09:20,210 --> 01:09:17,640 scientific disputes that I have actually 1516 01:09:22,730 --> 01:09:20,220 been in the center of and I've won 1517 01:09:27,340 --> 01:09:22,740 almost every one of them I'm used to 1518 01:09:33,620 --> 01:09:27,350 winning these what sometimes becomes 1519 01:09:36,770 --> 01:09:33,630 brawls in the scientific Valley I'm I'm 1520 01:09:39,800 --> 01:09:36,780 a two-fisted scientist who's not afraid 1521 01:09:44,750 --> 01:09:39,810 to step out in the alley over these 1522 01:09:47,510 --> 01:09:44,760 things and um I'm used to winning but 1523 01:09:49,550 --> 01:09:47,520 I'm very careful I'm very careful 1524 01:09:53,230 --> 01:09:49,560 I've waited I've known of this 1525 01:09:58,420 --> 01:09:53,240 possibility for 30 years it's taken me 1526 01:10:01,450 --> 01:09:58,430 that long to basically make certain 1527 01:10:05,260 --> 01:10:01,460 of the evidence find the evidence make 1528 01:10:07,270 --> 01:10:05,270 certain of it but you know all we can 1529 01:10:09,340 --> 01:10:07,280 ultimately do is take our best shot we 1530 01:10:12,010 --> 01:10:09,350 don't I was not on Mars when all this 1531 01:10:15,790 --> 01:10:12,020 happened I don't really know but we can 1532 01:10:19,210 --> 01:10:15,800 surmise there was a very violent nuclear 1533 01:10:25,870 --> 01:10:19,220 explosion on Mars from this evidence the 1534 01:10:28,510 --> 01:10:25,880 Xenon the Krypton plus other arm we 1535 01:10:31,630 --> 01:10:28,520 found a big radioactive scar on Mars of 1536 01:10:35,320 --> 01:10:31,640 when you when you radiate of the ground 1537 01:10:38,620 --> 01:10:35,330 um in a nuclear explosion with neutrons 1538 01:10:42,430 --> 01:10:38,630 it makes the potassium in element a 1539 01:10:45,480 --> 01:10:42,440 widespread element on earth it makes 1540 01:10:51,300 --> 01:10:45,490 that a radioactive and it stays 1541 01:10:54,430 --> 01:10:51,310 radioactive for it has a half-life of 1542 01:11:01,420 --> 01:10:54,440 roughly a billion years so it has a very 1543 01:11:05,500 --> 01:11:01,430 long memory and so if you had a big 1544 01:11:08,230 --> 01:11:05,510 nuclear explosion you would see a large 1545 01:11:11,740 --> 01:11:08,240 area of Mars slightly above normal 1546 01:11:14,650 --> 01:11:11,750 radioactivity in potassium because the 1547 01:11:17,440 --> 01:11:14,660 long-lived isotope and that's in fact 1548 01:11:21,160 --> 01:11:17,450 what we find sound that in its near 1549 01:11:22,600 --> 01:11:21,170 Cydonia well we're about to get to some 1550 01:11:25,120 --> 01:11:22,610 of the more alarming parts of it but I 1551 01:11:28,360 --> 01:11:25,130 just want to make sure that we all the 1552 01:11:30,840 --> 01:11:28,370 objections that people might have which 1553 01:11:32,920 --> 01:11:30,850 is you're still leaving the door open 1554 01:11:36,040 --> 01:11:32,930 basically what we have the best 1555 01:11:41,080 --> 01:11:36,050 interpretive model for the atmospheric 1556 01:11:44,020 --> 01:11:41,090 and sort of soil data on Mars the best 1557 01:11:46,930 --> 01:11:44,030 one available is that this is the result 1558 01:11:49,840 --> 01:11:46,940 of an ancient nuclear explosion you're 1559 01:11:51,400 --> 01:11:49,850 perfectly okay with you know 20 years 1560 01:11:54,550 --> 01:11:51,410 down the track it turns out that there's 1561 01:11:56,020 --> 01:11:54,560 some kind of crazy bearing in mind your 1562 01:11:58,600 --> 01:11:56,030 plasma physicists always about to say 1563 01:12:00,280 --> 01:11:58,610 some kind of crazy weird plasma event in 1564 01:12:03,580 --> 01:12:00,290 space that could cause it I think 1565 01:12:07,110 --> 01:12:03,590 there's a possibility of some unknown 1566 01:12:08,629 --> 01:12:07,120 natural phenomenon but the only known 1567 01:12:12,109 --> 01:12:08,639 phenomenon 1568 01:12:14,270 --> 01:12:12,119 unfortunately it's not natural but is it 1569 01:12:17,209 --> 01:12:14,280 is not a natural phenomena but it's 1570 01:12:20,689 --> 01:12:17,219 certainly well known phenomenon is the 1571 01:12:24,109 --> 01:12:20,699 explosion of a very large nuclear device 1572 01:12:26,270 --> 01:12:24,119 in a in a standard hydrogen bomb now in 1573 01:12:29,330 --> 01:12:26,280 the Arsenal's of all of the nations of 1574 01:12:32,180 --> 01:12:29,340 Earth they take a hydrogen bomb and then 1575 01:12:36,410 --> 01:12:32,190 to boost its yield they double its yield 1576 01:12:39,500 --> 01:12:36,420 by wrapping it in uranium so that the 1577 01:12:43,000 --> 01:12:39,510 fast neutrons from the fusion reaction 1578 01:12:47,000 --> 01:12:43,010 go out and split even normally inert 1579 01:12:49,129 --> 01:12:47,010 uranium 238 the the reaction is so 1580 01:12:52,720 --> 01:12:49,139 violent and the neutrons are so powerful 1581 01:12:58,040 --> 01:12:52,730 they even can fission 1582 01:13:01,600 --> 01:12:58,050 they can even fission lead so what they 1583 01:13:04,910 --> 01:13:01,610 did is they wrap the hydrogen bomb in 1584 01:13:08,530 --> 01:13:04,920 uranium or thorium or a mixture of the 1585 01:13:11,750 --> 01:13:08,540 two they generally prefer uranium 1586 01:13:14,870 --> 01:13:11,760 because it's more it's more reactive and 1587 01:13:18,310 --> 01:13:14,880 this doubles the yield of the hydrogen 1588 01:13:20,899 --> 01:13:18,320 bomb so you actually have a fission 1589 01:13:22,580 --> 01:13:20,909 triggering a fusion reaction the fission 1590 01:13:25,700 --> 01:13:22,590 rate bought the small atomic bomb 1591 01:13:28,450 --> 01:13:25,710 triggers the hydrogen bomb reaction and 1592 01:13:32,450 --> 01:13:28,460 then the hydrogen bomb in turn are 1593 01:13:35,149 --> 01:13:32,460 triggers a very large fission reaction 1594 01:13:40,430 --> 01:13:35,159 which actually is half of the energy of 1595 01:13:42,740 --> 01:13:40,440 the total yield and um so it just by 1596 01:13:46,990 --> 01:13:42,750 changing the material of the jacket of 1597 01:13:51,649 --> 01:13:47,000 the bomb you double the yield and um 1598 01:13:54,530 --> 01:13:51,659 it's a it creates an enormous amount of 1599 01:13:59,270 --> 01:13:54,540 nuclear fallout which then would poison 1600 01:14:02,479 --> 01:13:59,280 all life fusion by itself doesn't create 1601 01:14:04,760 --> 01:14:02,489 that much residual radioactivity that's 1602 01:14:07,939 --> 01:14:04,770 harmful to life that's why the neutron 1603 01:14:11,390 --> 01:14:07,949 bomb was almost a pure fusion bomb it's 1604 01:14:18,020 --> 01:14:16,010 but when you wrap the bomb in to dump 1605 01:14:21,110 --> 01:14:18,030 you know to boost what's called boosted 1606 01:14:25,810 --> 01:14:21,120 fission boosting its yield it makes it 1607 01:14:28,340 --> 01:14:25,820 very dirty and it will so the blast the 1608 01:14:30,440 --> 01:14:28,350 radiate initial radiation will kill 1609 01:14:33,580 --> 01:14:30,450 everything they'll blow the atmosphere 1610 01:14:37,580 --> 01:14:33,590 off Mars and then the fallout from these 1611 01:14:39,980 --> 01:14:37,590 this enormous nuclear weapon will poison 1612 01:14:43,030 --> 01:14:39,990 all remaining advanced life on Mars 1613 01:14:45,710 --> 01:14:43,040 nothing but primitive life will survive 1614 01:14:49,130 --> 01:14:45,720 twice this state if buried deep in the 1615 01:14:51,470 --> 01:14:49,140 soil yeah and why then this is the this 1616 01:14:54,410 --> 01:14:51,480 is where it gets a bit alarming why are 1617 01:15:00,980 --> 01:14:54,420 they no craters from from these events 1618 01:15:05,330 --> 01:15:00,990 on Mars oh well um you look at the that 1619 01:15:09,560 --> 01:15:05,340 you you you basically here garden is 1620 01:15:11,210 --> 01:15:09,570 what you have you have evidence for the 1621 01:15:12,760 --> 01:15:11,220 enormous nuclear explosion on Mars 1622 01:15:16,700 --> 01:15:12,770 evidence for past earth-like conditions 1623 01:15:19,220 --> 01:15:16,710 evidence for a what appears to be based 1624 01:15:21,260 --> 01:15:19,230 on an earth reference a primitive 1625 01:15:26,000 --> 01:15:21,270 civilization however its technological 1626 01:15:28,760 --> 01:15:26,010 level is unknown it appears based on the 1627 01:15:31,670 --> 01:15:28,770 artifacts we find it was it resembles 1628 01:15:34,400 --> 01:15:31,680 ancient age so you find Mars was like 1629 01:15:36,350 --> 01:15:34,410 Earth in every way it was even inhabited 1630 01:15:39,740 --> 01:15:36,360 then there was this big nuclear 1631 01:15:46,190 --> 01:15:39,750 explosion then you find the radioactive 1632 01:15:53,090 --> 01:15:46,200 scar of near Cydonia you find a smaller 1633 01:15:56,120 --> 01:15:53,100 one roughly maybe 20% of the yield of 1634 01:15:59,390 --> 01:15:56,130 the first one near utopia where we found 1635 01:16:01,130 --> 01:15:59,400 the other two phases and somebody asked 1636 01:16:03,200 --> 01:16:01,140 me well why did you go from nuclear 1637 01:16:04,900 --> 01:16:03,210 physics then back to these artifacts and 1638 01:16:07,460 --> 01:16:04,910 I said because I can read a map 1639 01:16:10,160 --> 01:16:07,470 it's a rare talent nowadays what 1640 01:16:12,590 --> 01:16:10,170 everybody using GPS but I said I can 1641 01:16:15,710 --> 01:16:12,600 read a map I know the radioactive scar 1642 01:16:18,710 --> 01:16:15,720 is here here is Cydonia just downwind of 1643 01:16:22,880 --> 01:16:18,720 it with the prevailing Coriolis winds on 1644 01:16:24,800 --> 01:16:22,890 Mars and here is the other scar and it's 1645 01:16:28,700 --> 01:16:24,810 just up when 1646 01:16:33,320 --> 01:16:28,710 of utopia or rather it's actually called 1647 01:16:36,620 --> 01:16:33,330 galaxias chaos that's official name this 1648 01:16:40,580 --> 01:16:36,630 is a name picked by NASA not by me 1649 01:16:42,980 --> 01:16:40,590 and uh so they the fallout from these 1650 01:16:45,470 --> 01:16:42,990 two nuclear weapons would have gone 1651 01:16:47,270 --> 01:16:45,480 directly downwind two boys and 1652 01:16:53,120 --> 01:16:47,280 everything that we survived the initial 1653 01:16:56,360 --> 01:16:53,130 blast at Cydonia and in utopium so but 1654 01:16:57,760 --> 01:16:56,370 there is no crater at either spot this 1655 01:17:00,500 --> 01:16:57,770 means it was an airburst 1656 01:17:04,040 --> 01:17:00,510 there's no craters at Hiroshima or 1657 01:17:06,290 --> 01:17:04,050 Nagasaki and that's because if you 1658 01:17:09,590 --> 01:17:06,300 everyone knows that if you want to 1659 01:17:12,380 --> 01:17:09,600 inflict maximum damage on white civilian 1660 01:17:14,900 --> 01:17:12,390 structures you set off your nuclear 1661 01:17:17,150 --> 01:17:14,910 weapon in midair this maximizes the 1662 01:17:19,070 --> 01:17:17,160 shock damage if you set it off on the 1663 01:17:21,650 --> 01:17:19,080 ground most of the energy goes into the 1664 01:17:25,220 --> 01:17:21,660 ground and exhibit crater but that's 1665 01:17:29,720 --> 01:17:25,230 that localizes the damage if you want 1666 01:17:33,980 --> 01:17:29,730 the damage to be more widespread and uh 1667 01:17:35,990 --> 01:17:33,990 and more ferocious then you go for the 1668 01:17:38,690 --> 01:17:36,000 intense shockwave in the air and that 1669 01:17:41,360 --> 01:17:38,700 means in air burst so this is standard 1670 01:17:43,730 --> 01:17:41,370 doctrine as illustrated by how the 1671 01:17:49,400 --> 01:17:43,740 nuclear weapons were employed Nagasaki 1672 01:17:54,440 --> 01:17:49,410 and Hiroshima unfortunately and so this 1673 01:17:56,900 --> 01:17:54,450 means that whoever did this this this 1674 01:17:59,480 --> 01:17:56,910 looks like standard employment of a 1675 01:18:01,790 --> 01:17:59,490 nuclear weapon using basic laws of 1676 01:18:06,080 --> 01:18:01,800 physics to maximize damage against 1677 01:18:09,980 --> 01:18:06,090 civilian areas and then you say well if 1678 01:18:12,230 --> 01:18:09,990 it was a nuclear war on Mars involving 1679 01:18:13,970 --> 01:18:12,240 the Martians they would have just fired 1680 01:18:15,050 --> 01:18:13,980 a whole bunch of little weapons they 1681 01:18:18,680 --> 01:18:15,060 wouldn't have blown up their entire 1682 01:18:22,220 --> 01:18:18,690 planet especially why loft a big weapon 1683 01:18:25,190 --> 01:18:22,230 into midair which wants to wait as much 1684 01:18:26,600 --> 01:18:25,200 as the Empire State Building when just 1685 01:18:29,330 --> 01:18:26,610 setting it off on the ground would have 1686 01:18:32,180 --> 01:18:29,340 been sufficient and that's where you 1687 01:18:33,570 --> 01:18:32,190 realize oh the Martians did not do this 1688 01:18:36,940 --> 01:18:33,580 to themselves 1689 01:18:40,320 --> 01:18:36,950 so you're basically led by the evidence 1690 01:18:44,500 --> 01:18:40,330 to a very specific frightening scenario 1691 01:18:46,240 --> 01:18:44,510 that is that someone else we know we're 1692 01:18:50,190 --> 01:18:46,250 not alone in the universe we know there 1693 01:18:56,820 --> 01:18:53,560 two of these inner interstellar inner 1694 01:18:59,680 --> 01:18:56,830 inner extraterrestrial intelligences 1695 01:19:01,960 --> 01:18:59,690 interacted on Mars there was an 1696 01:19:04,410 --> 01:19:01,970 indigenous species on Mars apparently 1697 01:19:09,460 --> 01:19:04,420 that built a primitive civilization 1698 01:19:12,970 --> 01:19:09,470 someone else came along and dropped two 1699 01:19:16,060 --> 01:19:12,980 very large nuclear weapons on Mars 1700 01:19:19,290 --> 01:19:16,070 apparently to sterilize the planet they 1701 01:19:22,450 --> 01:19:19,300 wanted to do a Death Star on this thing 1702 01:19:26,050 --> 01:19:22,460 just like we're talking someone like the 1703 01:19:30,160 --> 01:19:26,060 Daleks or governor Tarkin in Star Wars 1704 01:19:34,630 --> 01:19:30,170 who is asked well you know why hits 1705 01:19:36,940 --> 01:19:34,640 alder and he says well the other planet 1706 01:19:40,479 --> 01:19:36,950 you specified Tatooine is too remote to 1707 01:19:43,420 --> 01:19:40,489 be a good example yeah so we're talking 1708 01:19:46,750 --> 01:19:43,430 someone doing this to set an example 1709 01:19:50,440 --> 01:19:46,760 perhaps to potentially be [\h__\h] yeah like 1710 01:19:52,570 --> 01:19:50,450 I want to be clear yeah because you're 1711 01:19:54,130 --> 01:19:52,580 ever that your actual data are so good 1712 01:19:56,320 --> 01:19:54,140 and so compelling I want to be clear 1713 01:19:59,950 --> 01:19:56,330 that in this is the final yet we are 1714 01:20:02,470 --> 01:19:59,960 letting you a specific dreadful scenario 1715 01:20:04,810 --> 01:20:02,480 yeah this is a new it's an internment 1716 01:20:06,640 --> 01:20:04,820 wiped out by a spacefaring species yes 1717 01:20:09,070 --> 01:20:06,650 it's it well because I want to play 1718 01:20:12,160 --> 01:20:09,080 devil's advocate on that for in a bit 1719 01:20:16,960 --> 01:20:12,170 but I just want to illustrate for the 1720 01:20:19,840 --> 01:20:16,970 listeners that the data stops at nuclear 1721 01:20:23,200 --> 01:20:19,850 Airbus at like airburst nucleus where it 1722 01:20:25,330 --> 01:20:23,210 stops that's where and and so we look at 1723 01:20:27,070 --> 01:20:25,340 the data we have and go okay now we need 1724 01:20:28,600 --> 01:20:27,080 to interpret this and and your 1725 01:20:30,880 --> 01:20:28,610 interpretation is one of a sort of 1726 01:20:34,270 --> 01:20:30,890 broadly Bronze Age culture and Mars 1727 01:20:35,710 --> 01:20:34,280 being destroyed by another culture but 1728 01:20:37,840 --> 01:20:35,720 and that's I mean it's a good 1729 01:20:41,479 --> 01:20:37,850 interpretation and I'm need some 1730 01:20:45,109 --> 01:20:41,489 convincing now by the way Gordon I'm I'm 1731 01:20:48,109 --> 01:20:45,119 I'm well enough experienced enough 1732 01:20:53,779 --> 01:20:48,119 scientists to know there may be some 1733 01:20:56,810 --> 01:20:53,789 strange esoteric plasma ball lightning 1734 01:21:02,830 --> 01:20:56,820 falling out of space from some solar 1735 01:21:07,339 --> 01:21:02,840 storm uh you know but we have never seen 1736 01:21:09,739 --> 01:21:07,349 anything like this absolutely not and 1737 01:21:11,919 --> 01:21:09,749 when we have seen any living space and 1738 01:21:14,589 --> 01:21:11,929 and and we have been observing space 1739 01:21:17,479 --> 01:21:14,599 since the eighteen since the Middle Ages 1740 01:21:20,149 --> 01:21:17,489 anything like that that occurred in the 1741 01:21:22,910 --> 01:21:20,159 solar system we would have seen it and 1742 01:21:26,239 --> 01:21:22,920 made note of it nothing like that is 1743 01:21:28,370 --> 01:21:26,249 ever there is no no natural phenomena 1744 01:21:33,560 --> 01:21:28,380 that can account for this unfortunately 1745 01:21:36,049 --> 01:21:33,570 the only known phenomena is what we have 1746 01:21:38,419 --> 01:21:36,059 created on earth with our own hydrogen 1747 01:21:40,220 --> 01:21:38,429 bomb explosions absolutely 1748 01:21:43,310 --> 01:21:40,230 they were air for a lot of them are air 1749 01:21:44,839 --> 01:21:43,320 burst when we come to the interpretation 1750 01:21:49,189 --> 01:21:44,849 piece however I mean here's a devil's 1751 01:21:52,790 --> 01:21:49,199 advocate one for you one I mean I'm not 1752 01:21:54,589 --> 01:21:52,800 I'm not sure I the Bronte's thing is a 1753 01:21:56,330 --> 01:21:54,599 guess it's a good one given what's left 1754 01:21:58,640 --> 01:21:56,340 I mean the oh you and I would both agree 1755 01:22:01,339 --> 01:21:58,650 that the next step would be to actually 1756 01:22:03,379 --> 01:22:01,349 go and look yeah like we will only know 1757 01:22:07,580 --> 01:22:03,389 if we go and look which we should 1758 01:22:09,799 --> 01:22:07,590 obviously but by this I mean even if 1759 01:22:11,720 --> 01:22:09,809 they were because we're talking based on 1760 01:22:14,299 --> 01:22:11,730 your interpretation of the the half-life 1761 01:22:16,910 --> 01:22:14,309 here we're talking 250 billion years ago 1762 01:22:18,919 --> 01:22:16,920 to maybe half a billion but before they 1763 01:22:20,600 --> 01:22:18,929 were here I may about half a billion but 1764 01:22:23,839 --> 01:22:20,610 I would guess about half a billion years 1765 01:22:25,149 --> 01:22:23,849 ago which means even if they were Bronze 1766 01:22:27,169 --> 01:22:25,159 Age they would have been here by now 1767 01:22:27,799 --> 01:22:27,179 they would have got here by now and we 1768 01:22:30,620 --> 01:22:27,809 wouldn't exist 1769 01:22:33,470 --> 01:22:30,630 so exactly it would be we would be 1770 01:22:35,270 --> 01:22:33,480 Martians well we wouldn't exist which 1771 01:22:37,879 --> 01:22:35,280 actually this is kind of the devil's 1772 01:22:40,459 --> 01:22:37,889 advocate base so maybe the bombs were a 1773 01:22:42,140 --> 01:22:40,469 mercy if you look at it that way maybe 1774 01:22:45,560 --> 01:22:42,150 the bombs were a mercy maybe you're 1775 01:22:47,810 --> 01:22:45,570 dealing with a species that looks at 1776 01:22:49,310 --> 01:22:47,820 time differently it's a hypothetical I'm 1777 01:22:51,950 --> 01:22:49,320 just I'm putting it out there it's 1778 01:22:55,490 --> 01:22:51,960 obvious that when you when you when you 1779 01:22:58,430 --> 01:22:55,500 bring in the idea of intelligence 1780 01:23:01,970 --> 01:22:58,440 and technology the possibilities just 1781 01:23:03,980 --> 01:23:01,980 become myriad they do there's there's 1782 01:23:07,850 --> 01:23:03,990 there's just an infinite range of 1783 01:23:10,070 --> 01:23:07,860 possibilities um you know I write 1784 01:23:13,100 --> 01:23:10,080 science fiction so I can kind of be in 1785 01:23:18,560 --> 01:23:13,110 touch with that that range of 1786 01:23:22,130 --> 01:23:18,570 possibilities and um but based on known 1787 01:23:25,550 --> 01:23:22,140 phenomenon this is the interpretation we 1788 01:23:28,490 --> 01:23:25,560 arrive at with a fairly high degree of 1789 01:23:30,590 --> 01:23:28,500 confidence but we have to go there we 1790 01:23:33,650 --> 01:23:30,600 have to send people there to dig through 1791 01:23:35,840 --> 01:23:33,660 the ruins and find out what exactly 1792 01:23:39,260 --> 01:23:35,850 happened you know was there some prior 1793 01:23:41,960 --> 01:23:39,270 encounter in under this hypothesis did 1794 01:23:44,720 --> 01:23:41,970 this species that destroyed Mars come to 1795 01:23:46,550 --> 01:23:44,730 Mars and say we would like to colonize 1796 01:23:50,780 --> 01:23:46,560 part of your planet please give us 1797 01:23:53,570 --> 01:23:50,790 permission and the Martians perhaps said 1798 01:23:55,160 --> 01:23:53,580 hell no or was it like minority we 1799 01:23:57,980 --> 01:23:55,170 report did they say that the Martians 1800 01:24:00,860 --> 01:23:57,990 would actually become an even more 1801 01:24:03,200 --> 01:24:00,870 dangerous interplanetary species your 1802 01:24:05,540 --> 01:24:03,210 first encounter with this data just to 1803 01:24:06,950 --> 01:24:05,550 come back to the nuclear physicists who 1804 01:24:09,710 --> 01:24:06,960 actually look at it and see this as 1805 01:24:11,480 --> 01:24:09,720 self-evident your first encounter was in 1806 01:24:13,520 --> 01:24:11,490 was in a queue for a Xerox machine I 1807 01:24:16,310 --> 01:24:13,530 believe with this informations a current 1808 01:24:19,160 --> 01:24:16,320 yes and I was working at a government 1809 01:24:23,720 --> 01:24:19,170 laboratory where nuclear weapons were 1810 01:24:26,540 --> 01:24:23,730 designed built um you know for testing 1811 01:24:28,880 --> 01:24:26,550 they were the main kind of they handled 1812 01:24:33,100 --> 01:24:28,890 the engineering aspects of nuclear 1813 01:24:36,260 --> 01:24:33,110 weapons for both production of 1814 01:24:39,530 --> 01:24:36,270 deployment but also for you know to if 1815 01:24:43,460 --> 01:24:39,540 if Lawrence Livermore Lab where I went 1816 01:24:46,340 --> 01:24:43,470 to school designs a hydrogen bomb then 1817 01:24:49,070 --> 01:24:46,350 they would send it to Sandia Labs as you 1818 01:24:51,110 --> 01:24:49,080 know please build this and Sandia Labs 1819 01:24:54,470 --> 01:24:51,120 would work out all the you know the 1820 01:24:58,120 --> 01:24:54,480 details of which what size bolts to use 1821 01:25:01,060 --> 01:24:58,130 on it etc etc these things are important 1822 01:25:04,300 --> 01:25:01,070 and you know the Devils in the details 1823 01:25:06,760 --> 01:25:04,310 even in a hydrogen bomb and so Sandia 1824 01:25:10,060 --> 01:25:06,770 Labs had a very good reputation for 1825 01:25:13,330 --> 01:25:10,070 being extremely competent and they also 1826 01:25:15,430 --> 01:25:13,340 ran several programs uh and I only found 1827 01:25:18,880 --> 01:25:15,440 this later they were involved also in 1828 01:25:20,830 --> 01:25:18,890 atmospheric monitoring of they monitors 1829 01:25:24,070 --> 01:25:20,840 Earth's atmosphere to look for various 1830 01:25:26,170 --> 01:25:24,080 isotopes to see for one thing if 1831 01:25:29,230 --> 01:25:26,180 somebody else sets off a hydrogen bomb 1832 01:25:31,480 --> 01:25:29,240 underground and then the gas gases 1833 01:25:33,310 --> 01:25:31,490 leaked to the surface eventually will 1834 01:25:35,140 --> 01:25:33,320 change the if you're if you have very 1835 01:25:37,450 --> 01:25:35,150 sensitive monitoring the atmosphere you 1836 01:25:39,310 --> 01:25:37,460 can detect this that there has been a 1837 01:25:44,500 --> 01:25:39,320 nuclear test someplace and you can 1838 01:25:45,970 --> 01:25:44,510 estimate its yield etc etc so as I'm 1839 01:25:50,440 --> 01:25:45,980 standing in line in those days 1840 01:25:52,510 --> 01:25:50,450 everything Xerox machines are very very 1841 01:25:56,260 --> 01:25:52,520 important and if I'm standing in line to 1842 01:25:59,530 --> 01:25:56,270 Xerox a Mars article about the isotopes 1843 01:26:02,740 --> 01:25:59,540 in the Mars atmosphere I wasn't really 1844 01:26:04,390 --> 01:26:02,750 very interested in the xenon and Krypton 1845 01:26:06,040 --> 01:26:04,400 isotopes on Mars 1846 01:26:09,820 --> 01:26:06,050 I was basically interested in the 1847 01:26:12,160 --> 01:26:09,830 nitrogen oxygen carbon that indicated 1848 01:26:14,590 --> 01:26:12,170 that Mars had lost a considerable amount 1849 01:26:18,790 --> 01:26:14,600 of its atmosphere over the from the past 1850 01:26:20,560 --> 01:26:18,800 and so I was chatting with this fellow 1851 01:26:24,780 --> 01:26:20,570 as we're standing in line to use the 1852 01:26:28,000 --> 01:26:24,790 Xerox machine and I mentioned xenon 129 1853 01:26:30,340 --> 01:26:28,010 is e non 129 on Mars is very peculiar 1854 01:26:32,680 --> 01:26:30,350 it's much different than our earth or in 1855 01:26:36,610 --> 01:26:32,690 the meteorites or the solar wind from 1856 01:26:39,790 --> 01:26:36,620 the Sun and he does this big double take 1857 01:26:43,510 --> 01:26:39,800 he raises his eyebrows very genial kind 1858 01:26:45,160 --> 01:26:43,520 of technical fellow just kind of kind of 1859 01:26:47,170 --> 01:26:45,170 got projected the image of just being an 1860 01:26:50,860 --> 01:26:47,180 all-around serious science you know 1861 01:26:53,590 --> 01:26:50,870 hard-working scientist and all and he 1862 01:26:56,470 --> 01:26:53,600 does this he loses his smile he says 1863 01:27:00,070 --> 01:26:56,480 could I see that and he looks at the 1864 01:27:02,800 --> 01:27:00,080 data presented in the scientific article 1865 01:27:06,280 --> 01:27:02,810 it was the book scientific results of 1866 01:27:09,100 --> 01:27:06,290 the Viking expedition and showed the 1867 01:27:11,950 --> 01:27:09,110 distribution of xenon 129 1868 01:27:14,590 --> 01:27:11,960 relative to like earth and 1869 01:27:16,959 --> 01:27:14,600 just tells me he hands the book back to 1870 01:27:21,130 --> 01:27:16,969 me and he says someone nuked them then 1871 01:27:23,440 --> 01:27:21,140 he just nods and then he looks around a 1872 01:27:25,209 --> 01:27:23,450 little bit and says looks like he was 1873 01:27:28,120 --> 01:27:25,219 becoming uncomfortable and he realizes 1874 01:27:30,090 --> 01:27:28,130 he's in an unclassified part of the 1875 01:27:32,590 --> 01:27:30,100 laboratory it's the library 1876 01:27:34,620 --> 01:27:32,600 he shouldn't be having he shouldn't be 1877 01:27:37,930 --> 01:27:34,630 speaking of such things in such an area 1878 01:27:40,000 --> 01:27:37,940 so he just excuses himself he puts down 1879 01:27:43,120 --> 01:27:40,010 his book that he was going to Xerox and 1880 01:27:45,490 --> 01:27:43,130 he just leaves and it's quitting time 1881 01:27:48,010 --> 01:27:45,500 you know the place is getting darker and 1882 01:27:50,229 --> 01:27:48,020 they're turning off lights and stuff so 1883 01:27:53,700 --> 01:27:50,239 I just realized oh he just told me 1884 01:27:56,590 --> 01:27:53,710 something that is classified or 1885 01:27:59,320 --> 01:27:56,600 confidential and he shouldn't be talking 1886 01:28:01,300 --> 01:27:59,330 about that in an open unclear an area 1887 01:28:04,060 --> 01:28:01,310 like this and this happened periodically 1888 01:28:07,540 --> 01:28:04,070 it you know I was admonished once John 1889 01:28:11,020 --> 01:28:07,550 you shouldn't say that word in this area 1890 01:28:14,020 --> 01:28:11,030 because it's a term you know this is for 1891 01:28:19,120 --> 01:28:14,030 a classified process or something and 1892 01:28:21,520 --> 01:28:19,130 you know and it was just uh I I prided 1893 01:28:23,650 --> 01:28:21,530 myself on being very good about security 1894 01:28:25,360 --> 01:28:23,660 matters well yeah that was going to be 1895 01:28:27,640 --> 01:28:25,370 the last piece I mean if that's the 1896 01:28:30,310 --> 01:28:27,650 beginning of your kind of story of 1897 01:28:32,229 --> 01:28:30,320 investigating the bombs when you were 1898 01:28:34,720 --> 01:28:32,239 confident enough in it you sent it to 1899 01:28:36,670 --> 01:28:34,730 the Pentagon I I didn't know enough 1900 01:28:39,130 --> 01:28:36,680 about nuclear physics at the time I was 1901 01:28:41,830 --> 01:28:39,140 a trained as a plasma physicist uh you 1902 01:28:43,780 --> 01:28:41,840 know basically electromagnetism yeah 1903 01:28:46,030 --> 01:28:43,790 well let's jump to the end of it because 1904 01:28:48,459 --> 01:28:46,040 I think this is quite important this is 1905 01:28:50,860 --> 01:28:48,469 quite important to for other people to 1906 01:28:53,380 --> 01:28:50,870 understand once you had actually run 1907 01:28:56,020 --> 01:28:53,390 down well from this beginning moment 1908 01:28:57,790 --> 01:28:56,030 once you'd actually run down the other 1909 01:29:00,340 --> 01:28:57,800 possibilities of what this could be 1910 01:29:01,690 --> 01:29:00,350 you actually submitted your research to 1911 01:29:01,930 --> 01:29:01,700 the Pentagon beforehand tell us about 1912 01:29:05,170 --> 01:29:01,940 that 1913 01:29:08,020 --> 01:29:05,180 yes once I I learned enough about 1914 01:29:12,790 --> 01:29:08,030 nuclear physics vince DiPietro urged me 1915 01:29:14,709 --> 01:29:12,800 to contact the pentagon and tell them he 1916 01:29:17,950 --> 01:29:14,719 basically said John we have to come 1917 01:29:19,780 --> 01:29:17,960 forth with this and I thought well we 1918 01:29:22,570 --> 01:29:19,790 have to contact the Pentagon first to 1919 01:29:25,840 --> 01:29:22,580 see if it's classified because I had a 1920 01:29:29,990 --> 01:29:25,850 security clearance I didn't want to 1921 01:29:33,770 --> 01:29:30,000 violating you know and so we I call 1922 01:29:36,470 --> 01:29:33,780 Larry are are basically government 1923 01:29:38,810 --> 01:29:36,480 informant I figure well he's obviously 1924 01:29:41,120 --> 01:29:38,820 sent here by somebody who's interested 1925 01:29:43,100 --> 01:29:41,130 in this stuff so I called Larry in and 1926 01:29:46,730 --> 01:29:43,110 Larry came to the place where I was 1927 01:29:49,370 --> 01:29:46,740 working and we I had reserved the 1928 01:29:51,830 --> 01:29:49,380 conference room for about an hour I gave 1929 01:29:55,130 --> 01:29:51,840 him a full briefing and he took careful 1930 01:29:57,680 --> 01:29:55,140 notes and appeared fascinated this all 1931 01:30:00,470 --> 01:29:57,690 appeared to be news to him and then he 1932 01:30:02,480 --> 01:30:00,480 said okay I will report this at the 1933 01:30:05,630 --> 01:30:02,490 Defense Intelligence Agency so he did 1934 01:30:07,760 --> 01:30:05,640 and I we didn't hear anything in for 1935 01:30:11,570 --> 01:30:07,770 like six months and then a friend of 1936 01:30:14,830 --> 01:30:11,580 mine who I had grown up with who also he 1937 01:30:17,360 --> 01:30:14,840 worked for Office of Naval Intelligence 1938 01:30:20,000 --> 01:30:17,370 so he was part of the Defense 1939 01:30:21,860 --> 01:30:20,010 Intelligence world and he and I would 1940 01:30:23,510 --> 01:30:21,870 just get together socially because we've 1941 01:30:26,200 --> 01:30:23,520 grown up together we were both working 1942 01:30:29,930 --> 01:30:26,210 in Washington DC we were having uh 1943 01:30:32,060 --> 01:30:29,940 sitting on his very the porch of this 1944 01:30:34,580 --> 01:30:32,070 very pleasantly situated house in 1945 01:30:37,720 --> 01:30:34,590 Northern Virginia looking out over his 1946 01:30:40,820 --> 01:30:37,730 lawn and having a few beers and he said 1947 01:30:43,310 --> 01:30:40,830 John that nuclear stuff you found on 1948 01:30:45,230 --> 01:30:43,320 Mars you should really publish that no 1949 01:30:49,180 --> 01:30:45,240 in fact he did put it that way said he 1950 01:30:51,980 --> 01:30:49,190 said why don't you publish that and from 1951 01:30:55,610 --> 01:30:51,990 talking with him earlier I you know I 1952 01:30:59,180 --> 01:30:55,620 knew that he was very much informed on 1953 01:31:04,250 --> 01:30:59,190 all these matters and he remains my good 1954 01:31:06,380 --> 01:31:04,260 friends so I just said okay I'll do it 1955 01:31:08,510 --> 01:31:06,390 and then I had to figure out how to get 1956 01:31:10,850 --> 01:31:08,520 it into the literature so they it 1957 01:31:12,590 --> 01:31:10,860 wouldn't be immediately rejected and I 1958 01:31:15,110 --> 01:31:12,600 opted for the idea that was a natural 1959 01:31:18,980 --> 01:31:15,120 nuclear reactor on Mars it had gone 1960 01:31:21,860 --> 01:31:18,990 unstable and had a fast like I had done 1961 01:31:23,390 --> 01:31:21,870 at Chernobyl so that got accepted but 1962 01:31:26,110 --> 01:31:23,400 people who actually were at the 1963 01:31:28,480 --> 01:31:26,120 conferences told me they said well xenon 1964 01:31:31,160 --> 01:31:28,490 spectrum is wrong 1965 01:31:32,840 --> 01:31:31,170 that's not a unstable nuclear reactor 1966 01:31:37,560 --> 01:31:32,850 that's a bomb 1967 01:31:40,710 --> 01:31:37,570 so I gradually then was able to 1968 01:31:42,600 --> 01:31:40,720 ascertain that it could not have been a 1969 01:31:43,980 --> 01:31:42,610 natural nuclear explosion besides the 1970 01:31:47,630 --> 01:31:43,990 natural nuclear explosion would have 1971 01:31:51,360 --> 01:31:47,640 left a big crater on Mars and so I 1972 01:31:53,850 --> 01:31:51,370 that's how I basically got it into the 1973 01:31:56,520 --> 01:31:53,860 literature what we basically reported it 1974 01:31:58,680 --> 01:31:56,530 to the Pentagon uh in their 1975 01:32:00,810 --> 01:31:58,690 characteristic fashion of covering their 1976 01:32:02,940 --> 01:32:00,820 tracks everything was kind of done 1977 01:32:06,210 --> 01:32:02,950 unofficially they said go ahead and 1978 01:32:10,290 --> 01:32:06,220 publish so I did first as a natural 1979 01:32:12,690 --> 01:32:10,300 event on Mars which then did not fit the 1980 01:32:14,430 --> 01:32:12,700 data I almost wanted to believe it 1981 01:32:18,450 --> 01:32:14,440 myself you know that it was a natural 1982 01:32:22,230 --> 01:32:18,460 event a freak natural event this is Mars 1983 01:32:24,720 --> 01:32:22,240 after all but man I was reluctantly I 1984 01:32:28,260 --> 01:32:24,730 was forced back to the original 1985 01:32:31,440 --> 01:32:28,270 conclusion that this was the destruction 1986 01:32:34,950 --> 01:32:31,450 of Mars by somebody else somebody much 1987 01:32:39,060 --> 01:32:34,960 more advanced from space and that's 1988 01:32:41,160 --> 01:32:39,070 actually quite a good place to draw this 1989 01:32:44,280 --> 01:32:41,170 to a close but all that that implies 1990 01:32:46,740 --> 01:32:44,290 about our own place in the universe by 1991 01:32:47,460 --> 01:32:46,750 the way absolutely and that's a very 1992 01:32:51,800 --> 01:32:47,470 here we are 1993 01:32:54,030 --> 01:32:51,810 hey we're holding a rock concert in the 1994 01:32:56,130 --> 01:32:54,040 abandoned ghost town that is the 1995 01:32:58,980 --> 01:32:56,140 universe we're holding a rock concert 1996 01:33:01,950 --> 01:32:58,990 and having a big bonfire anyone who 1997 01:33:03,330 --> 01:33:01,960 wants to find us can find us all right 1998 01:33:04,590 --> 01:33:03,340 so now people are gonna have to go and 1999 01:33:06,120 --> 01:33:04,600 buy your book dr. Brenda Burke or 2000 01:33:07,770 --> 01:33:06,130 otherwise they won't get to sleep they 2001 01:33:09,810 --> 01:33:07,780 won't get to sleep up tomorrow we have 2002 01:33:13,530 --> 01:33:09,820 to go to Mars well awesome yeah 2003 01:33:15,660 --> 01:33:13,540 brilliant all right so we might not go 2004 01:33:16,590 --> 01:33:15,670 to to find your book well you can go to 2005 01:33:20,040 --> 01:33:16,600 my website 2006 01:33:24,180 --> 01:33:20,050 life on Mars dot pub just think of a 2007 01:33:27,660 --> 01:33:24,190 good English pub and so life on Mars one 2008 01:33:31,830 --> 01:33:27,670 word dot pub has all of the data the 2009 01:33:34,020 --> 01:33:31,840 latest data and uh I will be going to 2010 01:33:37,380 --> 01:33:34,030 another scientific conference I've had a 2011 01:33:40,050 --> 01:33:37,390 paper accepted to speak on this so I'm 2012 01:33:41,850 --> 01:33:40,060 going to go do that I'm being you know 2013 01:33:43,860 --> 01:33:41,860 basically waved ahead the government 2014 01:33:45,450 --> 01:33:43,870 wants this to come out not officially 2015 01:33:48,150 --> 01:33:45,460 but it wants it to come out 2016 01:33:49,380 --> 01:33:48,160 absolutely well on that note all these 2017 01:33:50,430 --> 01:33:49,390 information and the links to the books 2018 01:33:53,400 --> 01:33:50,440 and everything will be in the show notes 2019 01:33:55,800 --> 01:33:53,410 of course so a doctor dr. Brandenburg 2020 01:33:57,540 --> 01:33:55,810 this has been fascinating thank you very 2021 01:34:00,480 --> 01:33:57,550 much for your time and good luck 2022 01:34:02,580 --> 01:34:00,490 presenting the paper thank you very much 2023 01:34:05,880 --> 01:34:02,590 and also of course there's what death on 2024 01:34:08,730 --> 01:34:05,890 Mars the book from available on 2025 01:34:11,340 --> 01:34:08,740 amazon.com death on Mars wonderful 2026 01:34:12,630 --> 01:34:11,350 thanks once again Gordon thank you so 2027 01:34:17,190 --> 01:34:12,640 much for having me on your show 2028 01:34:21,240 --> 01:34:17,200 bye-bye bye so next Gordon and I wrap 2029 01:34:22,590 --> 01:34:21,250 things up it was a real joy to speak to 2030 01:34:25,650 --> 01:34:22,600 dr. Brandenburg about his research 2031 01:34:27,810 --> 01:34:25,660 because there the atmospheric 2032 01:34:29,550 --> 01:34:27,820 information or the his interpretation is 2033 01:34:32,610 --> 01:34:29,560 not even interpretation the atmospheric 2034 01:34:34,500 --> 01:34:32,620 data speak for themselves but outside of 2035 01:34:37,080 --> 01:34:34,510 that it does it's almost like in de 2036 01:34:41,400 --> 01:34:37,090 stuff because it is a it is a data point 2037 01:34:43,470 --> 01:34:41,410 that invites you to speculate about the 2038 01:34:46,470 --> 01:34:43,480 kind of nature or story of the universe 2039 01:34:49,170 --> 01:34:46,480 in a way that I hope people like listen 2040 01:34:52,260 --> 01:34:49,180 listen to the interview and and sit with 2041 01:34:54,960 --> 01:34:52,270 the fact that at the moment that is the 2042 01:34:57,510 --> 01:34:54,970 best hypothesis as to who did it and why 2043 01:35:00,660 --> 01:34:57,520 and so on as I said to dr. Brennan 2044 01:35:02,340 --> 01:35:00,670 because he has a a I don't want to say 2045 01:35:05,520 --> 01:35:02,350 melodramatic but his view of what 2046 01:35:07,290 --> 01:35:05,530 happened on Mars is is his own if 2047 01:35:08,670 --> 01:35:07,300 there's nothing to do with his data but 2048 01:35:10,350 --> 01:35:08,680 like that it could have been a planet of 2049 01:35:16,790 --> 01:35:10,360 pedophiles like we don't actually know 2050 01:35:19,620 --> 01:35:16,800 right yeah Sodom and Gomorrah yeah 2051 01:35:22,590 --> 01:35:19,630 that's the thing and once you start down 2052 01:35:24,540 --> 01:35:22,600 that path of a speculation there's 2053 01:35:26,100 --> 01:35:24,550 there's just no way into it it got about 2054 01:35:28,500 --> 01:35:26,110 an accident you know it could have been 2055 01:35:30,330 --> 01:35:28,510 a huge didn't stacks it could have been 2056 01:35:32,280 --> 01:35:30,340 from a kind of magical perspective I 2057 01:35:35,250 --> 01:35:32,290 think the destruction of Mars has 2058 01:35:37,740 --> 01:35:35,260 something to do with us on earth I don't 2059 01:35:39,660 --> 01:35:37,750 as I said to dr. Brandenburg it like as 2060 01:35:41,280 --> 01:35:39,670 you say oh you know the universe has 2061 01:35:43,740 --> 01:35:41,290 people that destroy other civilizations 2062 01:35:45,210 --> 01:35:43,750 in us if we would not be here if someone 2063 01:35:47,910 --> 01:35:45,220 hadn't bombed Mars Mars would have got 2064 01:35:49,700 --> 01:35:47,920 here and we wouldn't exist so I don't 2065 01:35:51,540 --> 01:35:49,710 know how and that's my speculation 2066 01:35:58,130 --> 01:35:51,550 obviously that has nothing to do with 2067 01:35:59,490 --> 01:35:58,140 the data but it these data invite quiet 2068 01:36:01,680 --> 01:35:59,500 consideration 2069 01:36:05,730 --> 01:36:01,690 neatly followed by drinks and thrashing 2070 01:36:07,980 --> 01:36:05,740 ideas around right you talk about it you 2071 01:36:09,480 --> 01:36:07,990 can't handle the truth moment digest 2072 01:36:12,030 --> 01:36:09,490 that one that you just said you know 2073 01:36:13,710 --> 01:36:12,040 what if at the end of the day okay 2074 01:36:15,690 --> 01:36:13,720 yeah that's horrible you wouldn't be 2075 01:36:18,210 --> 01:36:15,700 here unless it happens which I don't 2076 01:36:20,580 --> 01:36:18,220 know it's just fun to speculate on that 2077 01:36:22,710 --> 01:36:20,590 so we'll kind of leave it at that the 2078 01:36:26,130 --> 01:36:22,720 one tiny bit I was going to add there is 2079 01:36:30,150 --> 01:36:26,140 that there really isn't a lot of 2080 01:36:32,310 --> 01:36:30,160 controversy around the hard data that 2081 01:36:36,240 --> 01:36:32,320 he's found in the difference of these 2082 01:36:41,160 --> 01:36:36,250 isotopes and it's so telling from a kind 2083 01:36:45,360 --> 01:36:41,170 of skeptical versus the pseudo skeptic 2084 01:36:48,090 --> 01:36:45,370 standpoint is go folks look at the 2085 01:36:50,490 --> 01:36:48,100 pseudo skeptics who attack this and see 2086 01:36:53,340 --> 01:36:50,500 if they ever attack that they don't 2087 01:36:55,760 --> 01:36:53,350 touch it they don't touch they do not 2088 01:36:58,650 --> 01:36:55,770 it's all personal attack it's all 2089 01:37:01,980 --> 01:36:58,660 sneering and giggling and all this tell 2090 01:37:05,460 --> 01:37:01,990 us about the isotopes tell us about the 2091 01:37:08,220 --> 01:37:05,470 plasma physics his interpretation that 2092 01:37:10,470 --> 01:37:08,230 remains unshaken find anyone who said 2093 01:37:11,760 --> 01:37:10,480 otherwise and accredit to him as a 2094 01:37:15,420 --> 01:37:11,770 scientist because I sort of was really 2095 01:37:18,510 --> 01:37:15,430 pulling on it going is there any even 2096 01:37:21,510 --> 01:37:18,520 sort of theoretical plasma event you 2097 01:37:23,790 --> 01:37:21,520 could think of on paper that the Sun or 2098 01:37:25,200 --> 01:37:23,800 something could do that could have 2099 01:37:28,380 --> 01:37:25,210 triggered it and it's like well it is 2100 01:37:30,390 --> 01:37:28,390 always possible but but the reality is 2101 01:37:31,560 --> 01:37:30,400 we have no idea how that would work we 2102 01:37:35,970 --> 01:37:31,570 haven't seen it anywhere else in the 2103 01:37:38,970 --> 01:37:35,980 universe at all as for like for our 2104 01:37:40,320 --> 01:37:38,980 available data the the fact that it is a 2105 01:37:42,540 --> 01:37:40,330 weapon signature in the Martian 2106 01:37:44,880 --> 01:37:42,550 atmosphere is is simply the best match 2107 01:37:47,610 --> 01:37:44,890 and we have our own planet the before 2108 01:37:51,020 --> 01:37:47,620 and after of using nuclear bombs both in 2109 01:37:53,730 --> 01:37:51,030 testing and in war we have that as our 2110 01:37:56,400 --> 01:37:53,740 you know a B test to show that this is 2111 01:37:57,630 --> 01:37:56,410 what a weapon signature looks like but 2112 01:38:00,030 --> 01:37:57,640 even at the end is like look it 2113 01:38:02,370 --> 01:38:00,040 obviously could be where I think he's 2114 01:38:05,730 --> 01:38:02,380 correct is we'd have to leave it at that 2115 01:38:08,310 --> 01:38:05,740 we'd have to leave it at well there 2116 01:38:10,440 --> 01:38:08,320 could be a natural process that 2117 01:38:12,030 --> 01:38:10,450 generates this particular fast-moving 2118 01:38:12,609 --> 01:38:12,040 xenon 129 2119 01:38:15,639 --> 01:38:12,619 I said 2120 01:38:18,399 --> 01:38:15,649 in an atmosphere that we don't know yet 2121 01:38:22,149 --> 01:38:18,409 if it wasn't for the previous 70 years 2122 01:38:24,069 --> 01:38:22,159 of policy towards Mars so it's not a 2123 01:38:26,379 --> 01:38:24,079 it's not a data point that stands alone 2124 01:38:28,959 --> 01:38:26,389 it's a data point that you put next to 2125 01:38:32,129 --> 01:38:28,969 what we've just described and you start 2126 01:38:34,839 --> 01:38:32,139 to get a very interesting response 2127 01:38:36,489 --> 01:38:34,849 that's a great that's a great point and 2128 01:38:39,639 --> 01:38:36,499 I think we'll end it there 2129 01:38:42,009 --> 01:38:39,649 we'll do a quick cut and we'll figure 2130 01:38:45,729 --> 01:38:42,019 out how to incorporate this in and I 2131 01:38:47,889 --> 01:38:45,739 will now invite Gordon white back to 2132 01:38:50,770 --> 01:38:47,899 skeptic oh we've just finished up this 2133 01:38:53,529 --> 01:38:50,780 interview and Gordon traditionally what 2134 01:38:55,839 --> 01:38:53,539 I like to do is kind of throw out a 2135 01:38:59,919 --> 01:38:55,849 question to the audience that they might 2136 01:39:01,899 --> 01:38:59,929 want to wrestle around with a little bit 2137 01:39:03,879 --> 01:39:01,909 and I'm going to invite you on the spot 2138 01:39:07,839 --> 01:39:03,889 I didn't ask you really to prepare for 2139 01:39:12,129 --> 01:39:07,849 this so what is one question that you 2140 01:39:14,500 --> 01:39:12,139 think we could dialogue about from this 2141 01:39:17,049 --> 01:39:14,510 interview with the skeptical audience 2142 01:39:19,299 --> 01:39:17,059 just one or two come to mind yeah I 2143 01:39:20,469 --> 01:39:19,309 think the the classic sceptical piece 2144 01:39:24,339 --> 01:39:20,479 when people have listened to the 2145 01:39:28,119 --> 01:39:24,349 interview is the role of Carl Sagan and 2146 01:39:30,129 --> 01:39:28,129 the kind of public versus background 2147 01:39:31,779 --> 01:39:30,139 science that was going on in the late 2148 01:39:33,790 --> 01:39:31,789 70s early 80s is we're kind of 2149 01:39:35,709 --> 01:39:33,800 repositioning our ideas around it that's 2150 01:39:37,239 --> 01:39:35,719 what I want people to talk about and 2151 01:39:39,609 --> 01:39:37,249 also think about the implications of the 2152 01:39:42,459 --> 01:39:39,619 fact that we rebooted his show with a 2153 01:39:45,489 --> 01:39:42,469 similar mouthpiece very recently 2154 01:39:47,739 --> 01:39:45,499 it's that media-friendly science versus 2155 01:39:49,379 --> 01:39:47,749 actual science and and and what people 2156 01:39:52,799 --> 01:39:49,389 think about that in relation to space 2157 01:39:55,419 --> 01:39:52,809 perfect so back to the agenda who's 2158 01:39:57,759 --> 01:39:55,429 writing the script who's controlling the 2159 01:40:00,069 --> 01:39:57,769 agenda that's a great question a great 2160 01:40:02,379 --> 01:40:00,079 way to leave it Gordon again thank you 2161 01:40:04,959 --> 01:40:02,389 so much for bringing us this terrific 2162 01:40:06,669 --> 01:40:04,969 interview and for sharing all these 2163 01:40:10,049 --> 01:40:06,679 thoughts that you have with us about it 2164 01:40:13,529 --> 01:40:10,059 I think it's added a real sense of 2165 01:40:16,750 --> 01:40:13,539 closure and a real sense of context to 2166 01:40:19,419 --> 01:40:16,760 everything that dr. Brandenburg said so 2167 01:40:21,639 --> 01:40:19,429 thank you so much oh you're very welcome 2168 01:40:23,080 --> 01:40:21,649 and a shout-out to dr. Brandenburg for 2169 01:40:24,790 --> 01:40:23,090 his time as well thank you very much it 2170 01:40:27,700 --> 01:40:24,800 was my pleasure 2171 01:40:30,520 --> 01:40:27,710 so there you have it not a whole lot to 2172 01:40:32,740 --> 01:40:30,530 add to that please do join me on The 2173 01:40:35,080 --> 01:40:32,750 Skeptical forum or send me a note if 2174 01:40:37,420 --> 01:40:35,090 you'd like to comment on the questions 2175 01:40:39,730 --> 01:40:37,430 that Gordon teed up from this interview 2176 01:40:41,920 --> 01:40:39,740 of course you can find out all the 2177 01:40:47,080 --> 01:40:41,930 information you would want about skeptic 2178 01:40:49,240 --> 01:40:47,090 Oh at our website ske PTI ke o calm I 2179 01:40:51,880 --> 01:40:49,250 hope you enjoyed the show if you do 2180 01:40:55,150 --> 01:40:51,890 please share it with your friends with 2181 01:40:57,430 --> 01:40:55,160 everyone else this I think is important 2182 01:41:00,700 --> 01:40:57,440 information that I don't know is out 2183 01:41:02,980 --> 01:41:00,710 there in any other way so I sure hope 2184 01:41:04,630 --> 01:41:02,990 you do take the opportunity to share 2185 01:41:07,150 --> 01:41:04,640 this with someone who might be 2186 01:41:09,910 --> 01:41:07,160 interested in it I have a number of 2187 01:41:12,850 --> 01:41:09,920 exciting shows coming up that I can't 2188 01:41:15,820 --> 01:41:12,860 wait to bring to you so do stick around